M_P
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:11 am

pygmalion wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:52 pm
It seems that USB-C will soon be mandatory as a charging adapter for electronic devices in the EU.

What do you think, does this have a chance to force USB-C on Raspberry Pi Pico?

I am a big fan of Raspberry Pi products, but so far I have refrained from buying and testing Pico until they move to USB-C.
Why not use a USB-C to microUSB adapter? Then you can use your USB-C cables, power supplies, and whatnot and be able to use the Pico. Best of both worlds, and you're futureproofing your cables and power supplies.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:49 am

mandatory as a charging adapter
Most Picos are not "charged" so why are you waiting?

Mind you the USB-C should be a more reliable connector as it has more power connections.
Does the USB-C connector cost more?

Pico+ with more memory and USB-C?
Some RP2040 PCBs could be redesigned for USB-C, but then people will complain it does not meet the standard.
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rpdom
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:32 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:49 am
Mind you the USB-C should be a more reliable connector as it has more power connections.
Does the USB-C connector cost more?
Jamesh said it does.
jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:58 pm
USB-C connectors are currently a bit more expensive. If they drop to the same or less than uUSB, then for our much lower cost products (Pico, Zero), it might be an option.
Some RP2040 PCBs could be redesigned for USB-C, but then people will complain it does not meet the standard.
There are already RP2040 boards with USB-C this one for a start.
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aBUGSworstnightmare
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:40 am

https://shop.pimoroni.com/?q=RP2040

don't know why something get's requested which is there - in several flavors - already. Find a seller in your area in case you're not in UK.

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pygmalion
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:43 am

Please note that I only asked if there will be a switch to USB-C, which the answer is no.

I'll just wait until a Pico-compatible (with the same pinout) board comes out with USB-C instead of uUSB, which is up to 50% more expensive than the original. Or until I really absolutely unconditionally need one and buy USB-C version even for a larger price hike.

I consider my question answered and will not pursue it further. Thank you very much for all your responses.

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:51 am

pygmalion wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:43 am
Please note that I only asked if there will be a switch to USB-C, which the answer is no.

I'll just wait until a Pico-compatible (with the same pinout) board comes out with USB-C instead of uUSB, which is up to 50% more expensive than the original. Or until I really absolutely unconditionally need one and buy USB-C version even for a larger price hike.

I consider my question answered and will not pursue it further. Thank you very much for all your responses.
Actually, the answer was "depends", not no.
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hippy
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:54 pm

I will say I am not fussed whatever happens. I have a fair amount of kit which uses mini-USB, most is micro-USB, and some USB-C. I even have stuff which requires a USB-A plug to USB-A plug cable, a lot uses USB-B.

I can understand the EU wanting to mandate a single connector standard but for most users it doesn't make much of a difference when cheap cables and adaptors are readily available.

The mandated move from proprietary connectors, usually wired directly to the PSU, which meant every phone needed its own charger, was something well worth cheering. This just merits a shrug from me.

As to it forcing non-phone and non-tablet manufacturers to adopt USB-C I doubt it. If it makes economic sense they might but otherwise I imagine they have simply shrugged as well. There will however likely be a drift towards USB-C, probably completing just as the EU mandates sole use of whatever the next favoured standard is.

The "Nuclear Powered AAA" battery is what I am hoping for :D

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:03 pm

If more devices (not just Pi) used USB-C that brings manufacturing costs down overall, which should make connectors cheaper. Which could affect decision making in the future.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:00 am

I like that it fits in either way and has 4 pairs of power contacts.
Ease of use and reliability goes up, that's good.

That the EU had to mandate that is more nanny state control legislation.
Law makers are deciding engineering issues now.
Next they will be deciding personal health issues :roll:
Mandates for common sense because people have none anymore.

This also now restricts alternatives as they become unlawful?
Get arrested for using a DC jack?
Companies will pay fines for the "wrong" connector?
Might have to have a look at that legislation.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:56 am

The Pico's micro USB connector is a fortunate choice here. I've replace Pi3s with Pi4s and ended up with unused micro USB supplies. Not having to buy any extra supplies for the Picos saved me a bunch, and rescued supplies from the electronic waste pile. This, I think, is the idea behind the proposed EU legislation. We'll see...

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:57 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:00 am
I like that it fits in either way and has 4 pairs of power contacts.
Ease of use and reliability goes up, that's good.

That the EU had to mandate that is more nanny state control legislation.
Law makers are deciding engineering issues now.
Next they will be deciding personal health issues :roll:
Mandates for common sense because people have none anymore.

This also now restricts alternatives as they become unlawful?
Get arrested for using a DC jack?
Companies will pay fines for the "wrong" connector?
Might have to have a look at that legislation.
Don't be daft. This is wholly a good thing, preventing companies like Apple from using non standard connectors which just contribute to global wastage.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am

Don't be daft. This is wholly a good thing, preventing companies like Apple from using non standard connectors which just contribute to global wastage.
Good point, will Apple fight this or are they onboard?
Never used Apple products, don't like getting locked into propriety systems, software and components.
Unrepairable products are a bigger issue than one connector.

I still don't like Government interference into engineering choices.
Depends on who writes the legislation, politicians or unknown, unaccountable law drafters without any engineering or industry experience.
Allowing these unknown people to make an obvious good choice now gives them power they will never release.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:10 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am
Good point, will Apple fight this or are they onboard?
They're fighting this, of course.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:15 am

Wow, this EU Commission is deciding the standards for the World with this move.
The Commission has the right of initiative in legislative matters. Once a legislative proposal has been collectively decided on by the College, it passes to the next stage in the law-making process. In the majority of cases, it is transmitted to the European Parliament for examination and adoption (following the ordinary legislative procedure, also called co-decision).

At the same time, the national parliaments of EU member countries are invited to give their opinion on the proposal and to confirm that it is more effective to deal with the issue at EU, rather than regional or local level.
I was nearly unaware of this Commission, living in Oz, we are far away from that place.
That statement above basically means they will decide everything down to local government level.
In fact a One World Government at all levels.

Unelected law and standards makers could be Dangerous to Democracy.
Hmm, looks like they are selected, er elected, in Europe.
I also see a few violations of their own Charter, Article 3?
Deleting my comment is an article 10 violation?

Does Brexit mean RPT needs to comply or not?
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:44 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am
I still don't like Government interference into engineering choices.
It is not interfering in engineering choices; it is interfering in business choices. When businesses seek to maximise profits regardless of environmental or social damage done someone has to force them to do the right thing, and governments are the only ones who can do that by enacting laws which have to be complied with.
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:15 am
Wow, this EU Commission is deciding the standards for the World with this move.

[snip]

I was nearly unaware of this Commission, living in Oz, we are far away from that place.
That statement above basically means they will decide everything down to local government level.
In fact a One World Government at all levels.

Unelected law and standards makers could be Dangerous to Democracy.
Hmm, looks like they are selected, er elected, in Europe.
I also see a few violations of their own Charter, Article 3?
Deleting my comment is an article 10 violation?

Does Brexit mean RPT needs to comply or not?
Brexit means the UK does not / will not / may not have to comply with EU legislation. But anyone who wants to sell products into the EU will have to comply with EU legislation.

That is no different to anyone wanting to sell into Australia having to comply with Australian legislation, or selling to any country and having to comply with their legislation.

Having the EU legislate is no different to the Australian government enacting laws which apply to states and right down to the local government level, no different to any country doing that.

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:57 am

Seems to me they should legislate E-waste recycling properly.

So what do we do with all the old chargers?
Chargers will need to be made to last longer if we want to use one for everything.
Chargers are just one tiny part of E-waste and they are using this to dictate to corporations.
It does not fix the existing E-waste issues.

Since the EU is so concerned with E-Waste send it all to the EU Parliament, they have all the solutions.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:12 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:57 am
Seems to me they should legislate E-waste recycling properly.
In what way is the legislation defective ?
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:57 am
Since the EU is so concerned with E-Waste send it all to the EU Parliament, they have all the solutions.
I do hope we are not going to have to address all the nonsense and ignorance which entered the brexit debate again.

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:42 am

There is nothing new here!

The EU has done this before, a decade ago or so, in 2009, with their "common external power supply" proposal, to reduce e-waste.
Their then proposal then was to uniform power chargers to use USB and get rid of adapters with all kind of other connectors like barrel jacks, and 3.5mm plugs. That proposal was quite successful .

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ex ... wer_supply

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:41 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:15 am
Wow, this EU Commission is deciding the standards for the World with this move.
The Commission has the right of initiative in legislative matters. Once a legislative proposal has been collectively decided on by the College, it passes to the next stage in the law-making process. In the majority of cases, it is transmitted to the European Parliament for examination and adoption (following the ordinary legislative procedure, also called co-decision).

At the same time, the national parliaments of EU member countries are invited to give their opinion on the proposal and to confirm that it is more effective to deal with the issue at EU, rather than regional or local level.
I was nearly unaware of this Commission, living in Oz, we are far away from that place.
That statement above basically means they will decide everything down to local government level.
In fact a One World Government at all levels.

Unelected law and standards makers could be Dangerous to Democracy.
Hmm, looks like they are selected, er elected, in Europe.
I also see a few violations of their own Charter, Article 3?
Deleting my comment is an article 10 violation?

Does Brexit mean RPT needs to comply or not?
The EU is elected. Each member state has MEP's (Member of European Parliament). Please do a little reading of the subject before diving in. It's uninformed comments like this that gave Brexit a chance.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:42 am
There is nothing new here!

The EU has done this before, a decade ago or so, in 2009, with their "common external power supply" proposal, to reduce e-waste.
Their then proposal then was to uniform power chargers to use USB and get rid of adapters with all kind of other connectors like barrel jacks, and 3.5mm plugs. That proposal was quite successful .

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ex ... wer_supply
I find it interesting that Apple sticking with proprietary plugs because an adapter was possible leads people to conclude the USB mandate was successful. Was the mandate intended only to prevent the cryptographic handshakes that make sure the power supply is certified to work properly and not a counterfeit?

Rather than cooperating, maybe it would be more effective to stop buying stuff from countries in which the production of cloned and counterfeit goods is viewed as a clever industrial practice, especially given the human rights violations.

In my opinion it's likely that technology (as well as the politics) will change before any of these laws take effect. Could it be that all political decisions need more carefully to take into account what's likely to happen in the future?

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:39 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
Rather than cooperating, maybe it would be more effective to stop buying stuff from countries in which the production of cloned and counterfeit goods is viewed as a clever industrial practice, especially given the human rights violations.
Good luck with that. Most Apple product is made in China, lots of Android stuff is made in China. Basically, LOTS of stuff we use every day is made in China. And they are the only people willing to make it for the prices we, as a population, are willing to pay.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:53 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:39 pm
ejolson wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
Rather than cooperating, maybe it would be more effective to stop buying stuff from countries in which the production of cloned and counterfeit goods is viewed as a clever industrial practice, especially given the human rights violations.
Good luck with that. Most Apple product is made in China, lots of Android stuff is made in China. Basically, LOTS of stuff we use every day is made in China. And they are the only people willing to make it for the prices we, as a population, are willing to pay.
Ethical decisions are difficult because they often result in sacrifice.

Are the people working in those factories willing or have much of a choice? Maybe so, but it does need to be verified.

From a practical viewpoint, two standards between trading partners do not result in a stable situation. After the wealth and industries of previous generations are gone (along with the natural resources), economic conditions may be worse than before. That's why long-term political and economic planning is important.

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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:24 pm

ejolson wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:53 pm
jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:39 pm
ejolson wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:15 pm
Rather than cooperating, maybe it would be more effective to stop buying stuff from countries in which the production of cloned and counterfeit goods is viewed as a clever industrial practice, especially given the human rights violations.
Good luck with that. Most Apple product is made in China, lots of Android stuff is made in China. Basically, LOTS of stuff we use every day is made in China. And they are the only people willing to make it for the prices we, as a population, are willing to pay.
Ethical decisions are difficult because they often result in sacrifice.

Are the people working in those factories willing or have much of a choice? Maybe so, but it does need to be verified.

From a practical viewpoint, two standards between trading partners do not result in a stable situation. After the wealth and industries of previous generations are gone (along with the natural resources), economic conditions may be worse than before. That's why long-term political and economic planning is important.
Shame the current government isn't interested in planning further away than the next election then.

Anyway, you'll probably find people working in factories in the UK who don't want to be working there, it's not a Chinese (/insert any country name here) phenomenon.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:18 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:24 pm
Shame the current government isn't interested in planning further away than the next election then.
I wouldn't argue that the current UK government is not one of the worst examples but I struggle to suggest which if any current or past government in any "democratic" country could not have that accusation made against it.
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Re: Pico - EU - USB-C

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:43 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am
Don't be daft. This is wholly a good thing, preventing companies like Apple from using non standard connectors which just contribute to global wastage.
I still don't like Government interference into engineering choices.
Depends on who writes the legislation, politicians or unknown, unaccountable law drafters without any engineering or industry experience.
Allowing these unknown people to make an obvious good choice now gives them power they will never release.
A few points if I may:
  • GDPR is a rather good example that the EU is at a good level to enforce such regulations and can pass good and effective laws when it comes to tech. Which, of course, doesn't mean that they haven't tried to push controversial things (consider the recent copyright shitshow).
  • This is not the first time that the EU "interferes" with "engineering decisions" - including for ewaste reasons. Do you think RoHS is a bad thing? Do you think something like RoHS could be enforced by your local government which has virtually no leverage?
  • If you have barely heard of the EU Commission, but hold such strong arguments against the way EU laws work, then maybe you're being unfairly biased towards it too? I'm also pretty tempted to blame bad and sparse media coverage of the EU.

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