ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:43 pm

davidtuti wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:10 am

There are also cheap stick-on heat sinks, and this one is very effective and very cheap:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/7500951/
I see that it seems heatsinks are not very efficient https://youtu.be/E-4GaAz7XNM
The heat sinks in the video were the size of the CPU die.
The heat sinks in the link, are about 4x larger.
The heat sinks I use, cover the CPU, RAM and all.
Passive heat sinks don't cool that well. Especially not those with the tape they're using.
I tested out the sticky heat sinks, vs identical heat sinks without sticky back, and using dual sided tape. And both had identical cooling results.
The best thing is to get a heat sink without sticky back, and mount it with thermal paste.
For as long as the unit is kept horizontal, the thermal paste will keep the sink in place.
Additionally, one can give very good cooling, by using a 12V case fan (120-140mm, in case you have multiple units), and run them at 5V, or run 5V fans at 3.3V. They offer cooling of more than 20-25C.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:53 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:43 pm
The best thing is to get a heat sink without sticky back, and mount it with thermal paste.
For as long as the unit is kept horizontal, the thermal paste will keep the sink in place.
This heatsink from RS is 3.5K/W and has no tape:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/6744835/

this one is 8.2K/W and has a foil based tape pre-applied, so it may be used vertically to good effect:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/7500951/

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am
ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am
jdb wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:33 pm


I'm not disagreeing with you, because that would imply there is an avenue for debate. The conclusions in the post, and the recommendations that you subsequently make, are complete nonsense.
I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
Jamesh, I got banned for something a year ago, and exactly the same thing was said.
Yes, I'm here 9 years, before the first pis came out!
I would suggest you get your act together, because the only FOOL here, is you.
And NO, they DID NOT have HDMI in the beginning, they came with analog out!
Number 3, learn to write, dude! You're just trolling here!
4 No there aren't anymore. They already undervolted the CPU, and the only avenue left is going smaller. Unless you would elaborate on how else you're going to make sure that units on 28nm are going to run more efficiently?

AMlogic runs their CPUs at less than 1-1.5Watt (4 core 1,5-2Ghz 12nm). I don't see a Broadcomm A70-series CPU do this at 28nm.

I think you really feel attacked when someone tells you how things are, and you can't seem to accept them, or always have something to say that makes no sense, and lying in the process?
I mean, most of the stuff you accused me of, is TOTALLY WRONG!
Last edited by ProDigit on Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:06 pm

Duplicate

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:51 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am
ProDigit wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:29 am

I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).

Reducing temperatures on a pi 4B can only be done by a smaller die process. There is no other option for this. Other than further undervolt the CPU/GPU/RAM at idle, which will net a degree or two more.

The other ideas, are nice to have, but companies might not have such hardware pre-made or sold for cheap.
But if it was, it would be something to look for.
Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
Jamesh, I got banned for something a year ago, and exactly the same thing was said.
Yes, I'm here 9 years, before the first pis came out!
I would suggest you get your act together, because the only FOOL here, is you.
And NO, they DID NOT have HDMI in the beginning, they came with analog out!
Number 3, learn to write, dude! You're just trolling here!
4 No there aren't anymore. They already undervolted the CPU, and the only avenue left is going smaller. Unless you would elaborate on how else you're going to make sure that units on 28nm are going to run more efficiently?

AMlogic runs their CPUs at less than 1-1.5Watt (4 core 1,5-2Ghz 12nm). I don't see a Broadcomm A70-series CPU do this at 28nm.

I think you really feel attacked when someone tells you how things are, and you can't seem to accept them, or always have something to say that makes no sense, and lying in the process?
I mean, most of the stuff you accused me of, is TOTALLY WRONG!
Delayed reaction much? The original pi1 had Hdmi. How do you not know that if you so well informed?

I'd stop now before you say anything else.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:53 pm

The very firstprototype Pis that didn't have HDMI, were not available for purchase. They weren't even Pis as we know them today, so I think Jamesh knows what he's talking about.**
Especially considering he actually works there since the beginning...

**I am aware that I've disagreed with him a fair bit recently, different matter.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:10 am

ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm

I had exactly the same response about 8 years ago, when I suggested to use HDMI on a pi, and get rid of the TV/RGB out. It was ludicrous, and expensive, and I was a fool to even suggest it.
Isn't post history on forums a wonderful thing.

You weren't arguing for HDMI, you were arguing against having an analogue out alongside it.
ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:37 pm
I understand, but as people in western worlds upgrade their tv's to more modern ones, you'll see a bunch of these second hand tv's being shipped to Africa. Even in Asia they will start selling digital flatscreen LCD's cheaper and cheaper, to the point where you'll see in every home at least a 30" 720p flatscreen TV (probably priced around $120 US).
I really think things will go faster than we think! It took nearly 30 years for regular tube TV's to trickle down to third world countries, but nowadays, people tend to upgrade their gear a lot faster!

The Raspberry Pi is still not on the market yet, and old tube tv's are no longer being sold on the US market since 2008. Even in the upcoming countries like China LCD's are all that's been sold on the market, with newer models coming out on average every year!

Want LAN? Get a USB LAN Stick!

ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm
A few years later, I suggested another upgrade, which also was blatantly ignored on the forum, yet implemented a few years later in newer models. (I believe it was built in wifi, or something...).
Onboard Wifi was always in the future plans, just not achievable for cost reasons on the original Pi. See Liz's post from July 2011.
liz wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:06 am
@HC Initially, at least, onboard wifi is just prohibitively expensive, and will drive the price of the device to a point way above where we want it to be if we're actually going to get it into the hands of the people we want to see using it. Later iterations will, we hope, have wifi, because if we manage a decent number of sales it increases our bargaining power with chip manufacturers.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:54 am

4 No there aren't anymore. They already undervolted the CPU, and the only avenue left is going smaller. Unless you would elaborate on how else you're going to make sure that units on 28nm are going to run more efficiently?
Your wish...

There are a number of ways of reducing temperature of the die without shrinking it, both in HW and SW.

In SW, simply optimising code can make a huge difference - using less cycles to do something means less power. But there are also things like DVFS which we do to some extent already, but there are constant tweaks being done in this area. Passing of software tasks to HW blocks, for example the GPU can also help with reducing temperature, again an ongoing process.

In HW one excellent option is something called clock gating. Simplistically, this is where you turn off clocks to HW that isn't being used. This is exceptionally fine grained - you can turn stuff on and off thousands of times a second and make appreciable differences to the power consumption. This is the reason the CO stepping of the 2711 uses LESS POWER than the B1 doing the same tasks, but is still on the SAME process node. There are other options as well, which I won't go in to.

At a board level, careful choice of components can reduce the overall power consumption of the board, and thereby reducing the whole devices temperature. This has a consequent effect on die temperature.

So, clearly there are multiple avenues to explore to reduce power consumption without going to a smaller node. Whether we do so is another matter. HW changes are hugely expensive, so we mostly work on optimising SW and board stuff.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:10 am

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:54 am
In HW one excellent option is something called clock gating. Simplistically, this is where you turn off clocks to HW that isn't being used. This is exceptionally fine grained - you can turn stuff on and off thousands of times a second and make appreciable differences to the power consumption.
Intel CPU's turn off the power to the unused upper portions of large CPU registers!

It wouldn't surprise me if ARM did that for cores with SVE (up to 1024-bit registers).

:) I would like a 5nm node size Pi though (like the iPhone 12) :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:19 am

jahboater wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:10 am
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:54 am
In HW one excellent option is something called clock gating. Simplistically, this is where you turn off clocks to HW that isn't being used. This is exceptionally fine grained - you can turn stuff on and off thousands of times a second and make appreciable differences to the power consumption.
Intel CPU's turn off the power to the unused upper portions of large CPU registers!

It wouldn't surprise me if ARM did that for cores with SVE (up to 1024-bit registers).

:) I would like a 5nm node size Pi though (like the iPhone 12) :)
There are loads of different things you can do to reduce power consumption of a chip, this is just another example. They are very expensive to implement given the cost of die changes.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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bensimmo
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:38 pm

While you're talking about it, it'll be interesting to see when/if somebody takes some measurements of typical desktop usage of a v1.4 board with b1 or better a c0 when they come to the Pi4, and compare it back to the original board at release, including original firmware.

See what all their efforts have gain us the users :-)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:51 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:37 am


Being inaccurate is ok (just) , blatant lying is unacceptable.

You clearly know very little about the Pi.

1. Not been around for 8 years.
2. Always had HDMI.
3. Unless you work for either Pi or Broadcom, your suggestions were probably not even noticed. If indeed you actually made them. And I'm pretty sure you don't work for either of those given your subject knowledge level. That said, how interesting would it be to know what you suggested, who you suggested it to, and when.
4. There are other avenues to reduce heat than reducing die size.

So, since it's clear you are now just making stuff up, I thinks it's time for a holiday.
Jamesh, I got banned for something a year ago, and exactly the same thing was said.
Yes, I'm here 9 years, before the first pis came out!
I would suggest you get your act together, because the only FOOL here, is you.
And NO, they DID NOT have HDMI in the beginning, they came with analog out!
Number 3, learn to write, dude! You're just trolling here!
4 No there aren't anymore. They already undervolted the CPU, and the only avenue left is going smaller. Unless you would elaborate on how else you're going to make sure that units on 28nm are going to run more efficiently?

AMlogic runs their CPUs at less than 1-1.5Watt (4 core 1,5-2Ghz 12nm). I don't see a Broadcomm A70-series CPU do this at 28nm.

I think you really feel attacked when someone tells you how things are, and you can't seem to accept them, or always have something to say that makes no sense, and lying in the process?
I mean, most of the stuff you accused me of, is TOTALLY WRONG!
Delayed reaction much? The original pi1 had Hdmi. How do you not know that if you so well informed?

I'd stop now before you say anything else.
Well, it at least proves you're not mr know it all!
Apparently I was right about being here for over 9 years, proven in the repost above.

As far as the HDMI issue, the first prototypes did not have HDMI included. I might have said that the analog out makes no sense when there's a HDMI, but I do also believe I was trying to get HDMI ports on the Pi, which engineers said it was impossible, too expensive, not feasible!
It's not the first suggestion I've given to the Pi foundation that was completely disregarded, laughed at, and even got banned twice for suggesting things, they actually ended up implementing in newer models!
The irony!

As far as software reduction in temperatures, like I mentioned before too, but you neglected to read, is that they're basically already as optimized as possible. There's only so many things one can turn off.
I'd like to see you drop the Pi4 CPU temperatures by 5C any further in software! I really do!
Perhaps one can suspend unused USB hubs, but it's not going to amount to much lower power consumption/lower temperatures.
You're pretty close to running that CPU as temperature optimized as possible. Perhaps engineers can run 1 or 2 more C off the CPU temps, without disabling necessary features, but that'll be about it.

There are some idle over voltage settings that can be lowered (to -2 setting, and lower the idle core clock by 100-200Mhz) while still operating like a pi should;
But under load there will be a performance hit with lowering voltages.
Most people I know, who are tinkering with the Pi3B or 4, actually run them overvolted most of the time.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:53 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
I'd like to see you drop the Pi4 CPU temperatures by 5C any further in software! I really do!
I thought the firmware changes in the early days of the Pi4 (and the Pi3 for that matter) did just that.
ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
But under load there will be a performance hit with lowering voltages.
There will be a stability hit, not a performance hit.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:11 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
I was trying to get HDMI ports on the Pi, which engineers said it was impossible, too expensive, not feasible!
When you joined this forum (August 30th 2011) the Pi was already confirmed to have HDMI.
Screenshot_20201214-190324_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20201214-190324_Chrome.jpg (45.74 KiB) Viewed 1464 times
abishur wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:00 pm
1. I will have HDMI audio output supporting H.264 with level 4.1 playback as stated here
ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
Most people I know, who are tinkering with the Pi3B or 4, actually run them overvolted most of the time.
I haven't undervolted any of my Pi3s or my Pi 4.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm

As far as the HDMI issue, the first prototypes did not have HDMI included. I might have said that the analog out makes no sense when there's a HDMI, but I do also believe I was trying to get HDMI ports on the Pi, which engineers said it was impossible, too expensive, not feasible!

This entire forum's archive is searcheable. Post a link to where you found the statement you are claiming you made (and the subsequent claim that HDMI was dismissed as an option).
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:17 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm

the only FOOL here, is you.

Number 3, learn to write, dude! You're just trolling here!

I mean, most of the stuff you accused me of, is TOTALLY WRONG!


Well, it at least proves you're not mr know it all!

It's not the first suggestion I've given to the Pi foundation that was completely disregarded, laughed at, and even got banned twice for suggesting things, they actually ended up implementing in newer models!
The irony!
Perhaps it not what you say but how you say it that is getting you banned?
Doug.
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jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:31 pm

ProDigit wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:51 pm
ProDigit wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:04 pm

Jamesh, I got banned for something a year ago, and exactly the same thing was said.
Yes, I'm here 9 years, before the first pis came out!
I would suggest you get your act together, because the only FOOL here, is you.
And NO, they DID NOT have HDMI in the beginning, they came with analog out!
Number 3, learn to write, dude! You're just trolling here!
4 No there aren't anymore. They already undervolted the CPU, and the only avenue left is going smaller. Unless you would elaborate on how else you're going to make sure that units on 28nm are going to run more efficiently?

AMlogic runs their CPUs at less than 1-1.5Watt (4 core 1,5-2Ghz 12nm). I don't see a Broadcomm A70-series CPU do this at 28nm.

I think you really feel attacked when someone tells you how things are, and you can't seem to accept them, or always have something to say that makes no sense, and lying in the process?
I mean, most of the stuff you accused me of, is TOTALLY WRONG!
Delayed reaction much? The original pi1 had Hdmi. How do you not know that if you so well informed?

I'd stop now before you say anything else.
Well, it at least proves you're not mr know it all!
Apparently I was right about being here for over 9 years, proven in the repost above.

As far as the HDMI issue, the first prototypes did not have HDMI included. I might have said that the analog out makes no sense when there's a HDMI, but I do also believe I was trying to get HDMI ports on the Pi, which engineers said it was impossible, too expensive, not feasible!
It's not the first suggestion I've given to the Pi foundation that was completely disregarded, laughed at, and even got banned twice for suggesting things, they actually ended up implementing in newer models!
The irony!

As far as software reduction in temperatures, like I mentioned before too, but you neglected to read, is that they're basically already as optimized as possible. There's only so many things one can turn off.
I'd like to see you drop the Pi4 CPU temperatures by 5C any further in software! I really do!
Perhaps one can suspend unused USB hubs, but it's not going to amount to much lower power consumption/lower temperatures.
You're pretty close to running that CPU as temperature optimized as possible. Perhaps engineers can run 1 or 2 more C off the CPU temps, without disabling necessary features, but that'll be about it.

There are some idle over voltage settings that can be lowered (to -2 setting, and lower the idle core clock by 100-200Mhz) while still operating like a pi should;
But under load there will be a performance hit with lowering voltages.
Most people I know, who are tinkering with the Pi3B or 4, actually run them overvolted most of the time.
I have a Pi prototype in my hand right now (one of 50 made, I got it when I was working on the Pi bringup). It has an HDMI port on it. So you really have no idea what you are talking about. I also have Pi1 serial number 1 here, also has an HDMI port. This prototype was designed and built well before the Pi was announced, so you could not possible have had input on it.

There was a previous BROADCOM prototype, which was basically a 2835 on a tiny board with a camera on it. That was NOT a Pi prototype. I don't have one of those, so don't know about any video out at all. Think they just had an SD card.

As for optimisations, since you have no visibility of the firmware, don't you think its a little presumptuous to say it cannot be further optimised? Not only that, but the real optimisations for the future are to come in the KMS code which is still under development.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 temperature

Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:45 pm

The small thing with a camera on it had USB one end and HDMI the other end.


Edit to add
Small thing Proto-Pi.....
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/eight- ... posts/pcb/

Pi Alpha
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/the-al ... -are-here/

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