sparseMatrix
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:07 pm

Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:42 pm

Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

If it is indeed the 'official position' to recommend against a full upgrade, then that position should perhaps be reconsidered; as should the policy of not testing or supporting such upgrades. This operation is a base function of a core operating system tool; it should work here as well as it does anywhere.

To that end, the proper position is to make sound recommendations concerning best practices for the risk level that accompanies such upgrades, which is to say, prior to such an upgrade, proper testing should be performed to anticipate any negative impact on any work in progress (whether that be making shape for the next moonshot or watching random youtubes), making a backup of such work (in the interest of due diligence and full coverage), and only after such operations have been completed should the upgrade operation be undertaken.

This is sound advice for *any* upgrade operation, whether hardware, operating system or application. You can feel free to quote me or copy and paste what I've said. There is nothing original there; it's simply best practices for such operations.

Taking a more energetic and supportive approach exposes you to no more liability than any other advice you provide concerning the product and is eye-to-eye with industry standard practices. To be honest, anything else seems a bit arbitrary and perhaps a bit lazy.

Having taken such risk mitigation measures and being well appraised of how things might go sideways, this operation is like any other performed on such a device: design for effect, implement, test. Repeat until success. Your user is your partner and has been properly advised; the quality of the relationship is increased. Trust your user, s/he does good work.

It's a far better approach than 'don't touch that it used to be broken a while back', and will build competence and trust in your user base and advance your product.

Wins all around.

Cheers

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: ust wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:03 pm

Our recommendation is:

sudo apt update
sudo apt full-upgrade

Not sure why you think otherwise, as that has always been the case (well, we used to say sudo apt upgrade a few years back, but decided full-upgrade was better)
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

Cloudcentric
Posts: 1277
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:13 am

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:13 pm

sparseMatrix wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:42 pm
Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

If it is indeed the 'official position' to recommend against a full upgrade, then that position should perhaps be reconsidered; as should the policy of not testing or supporting such upgrades. This operation is a base function of a core operating system tool; it should work here as well as it does anywhere.

To that end, the proper position is to make sound recommendations concerning best practices for the risk level that accompanies such upgrades, which is to say, prior to such an upgrade, proper testing should be performed to anticipate any negative impact on any work in progress (whether that be making shape for the next moonshot or watching random youtubes), making a backup of such work (in the interest of due diligence and full coverage), and only after such operations have been completed should the upgrade operation be undertaken.

This is sound advice for *any* upgrade operation, whether hardware, operating system or application. You can feel free to quote me or copy and paste what I've said. There is nothing original there; it's simply best practices for such operations.

Taking a more energetic and supportive approach exposes you to no more liability than any other advice you provide concerning the product and is eye-to-eye with industry standard practices. To be honest, anything else seems a bit arbitrary and perhaps a bit lazy.

Having taken such risk mitigation measures and being well appraised of how things might go sideways, this operation is like any other performed on such a device: design for effect, implement, test. Repeat until success. Your user is your partner and has been properly advised; the quality of the relationship is increased. Trust your user, s/he does good work.

It's a far better approach than 'don't touch that it used to be broken a while back', and will build competence and trust in your user base and advance your product.

Wins all around.

Cheers


https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... #using-apt

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craigevil
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Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:19 pm

My guess is that the OP is about upgrading releases.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 am
We've been testing Bullseye on Pi for some months, along with newer kernels and lots of DRM/KMS stuff plus the 64bit version. It's nearly there. Going to be a big change, so I suspect an official upgrade process is unlikely. We've always recommended starting with a new SD card for jumps like this.
Raspberry PI 400 Raspberry Pi OS (Debian Sid) Kernel: 5.15.5-v8+ aarch64 DE: MATE Ram 4GB
Debian - "If you can't apt install something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"

jamesh
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Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm

craigevil wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:19 pm
My guess is that the OP is about upgrading releases.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 am
We've been testing Bullseye on Pi for some months, along with newer kernels and lots of DRM/KMS stuff plus the 64bit version. It's nearly there. Going to be a big change, so I suspect an official upgrade process is unlikely. We've always recommended starting with a new SD card for jumps like this.
If that is what he means, it's spectacularly unclear from the OP.

And if so, the answer is that going between versions this different is fraught with difficulty. More difficulty than we have time to fix. So our recommendation is for big jumps like this, start with a new SD card. We often supply instructions for trying to do it, but we do not guarantee they will work in all cases, or indeed, at all.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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dickon
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Location: Home, in Towcester

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:58 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm
craigevil wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:19 pm
My guess is that the OP is about upgrading releases.
That was my reading of it, too.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm
If that is what he means, it's spectacularly unclear from the OP.

And if so, the answer is that going between versions this different is fraught with difficulty. More difficulty than we have time to fix. So our recommendation is for big jumps like this, start with a new SD card. We often supply instructions for trying to do it, but we do not guarantee they will work in all cases, or indeed, at all.
Insofar as Debian guarantees anything at all, they do more or less guarantee that a last-point-release is upgradeable to a new version with an edit or two in /etc/apt/sources.list and an update / full-upgrade pair, and I think people are surprised that you don't, given that PiOS is a debian derivative. I get why you don't -- you've made too many changes to the stock OS to make it easy, and you don't have the resources to troubleshoot everybody if something goes wrong -- but users seem to have expectations these days.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

jamesh
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Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:27 pm

dickon wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:58 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm
craigevil wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:19 pm
My guess is that the OP is about upgrading releases.
That was my reading of it, too.
jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:38 pm
If that is what he means, it's spectacularly unclear from the OP.

And if so, the answer is that going between versions this different is fraught with difficulty. More difficulty than we have time to fix. So our recommendation is for big jumps like this, start with a new SD card. We often supply instructions for trying to do it, but we do not guarantee they will work in all cases, or indeed, at all.
Insofar as Debian guarantees anything at all, they do more or less guarantee that a last-point-release is upgradeable to a new version with an edit or two in /etc/apt/sources.list and an update / full-upgrade pair, and I think people are surprised that you don't, given that PiOS is a debian derivative. I get why you don't -- you've made too many changes to the stock OS to make it easy, and you don't have the resources to troubleshoot everybody if something goes wrong -- but users seem to have expectations these days.
I reckon it would take a good few months of testing over and above what we do now to be able to confirm the majority of use cases upgrade OK. That's expensive, and just delays the new release.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

swampdog
Posts: 824
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:22 am

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:31 pm

I normally do a clean install for major upgrades but have tried it this last month with linux mint. First I did it for an 18.3 VM because that would be easy to restore. Took ages and I've only got it to mint 19.3 but checks out ok. Repeat for my wife's physical 18.3 (far less complex) and no sound. I already had a 19.3 VM (installed as such) and that refuses to go to v20. My new PC is stuck on 18.3 and the inconsistencies so far have been enough to tell me to install v20 from scratch when I take the plunge.

The above are all 64bit. I don't want to contemplate the mess trying to push something from 32bit to 64bit cleanly. I've been there before (on boxes which had custom source compiled to 32bit as well) let alone the complexities of making it all work with the rpi specific hardware. In fact I've just checked my old archives of redhat images ranging between v4 to v6. There are 21 one of them and 14 sles images (v9 to v11) of "us" trying to get a pair of redhat/sles boxes from v4/v9 respectively into something supported. I didn't keep all the centos images.

I did once write an app that automatically kept changes but I wrote it on work time. All it did was make timestamped copies of whatever you were about to edit before invoking your editor. I ought to rewrite it but never have because "cp -vp foo foo.ORIGINAL" before the first edit suffices in most cases.

sparseMatrix
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:07 pm

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:50 pm

Hey guys if the original recommendation to forego the 'full upgrade' was in light of a transition from 32 to 64 bit, I have to say I get that and tend to agree - in my own defence though, I'll say that (if that's the case), it wasn't clear from reading the thread, at least through the first few pages, by which time I was stirred to reply.

In any case, it was not my intent to discredit the work done on raspbian (it's awesome!) or to throw any shade on the pi engineering folk, so much as to well, I'm sure some folks read my 'screed'.

In any case, please accept my apologies if I have offended, and above all else be motivated and encouraged :D

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dickon
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Location: Home, in Towcester

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:27 pm
I reckon it would take a good few months of testing over and above what we do now to be able to confirm the majority of use cases upgrade OK. That's expensive, and just delays the new release.
Yeah, there's no point. FWLIW, lite -> lite has been perfectly fine for me each time, but other than the obvious Pi-specific packages, it's more or less a straight Debian in all but repo URL. Not having to worry about the /boot filesystem (due to netbooting everything) also definitely helped when that partition size was embiggened a release or two back.
swampdog wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:31 pm
I normally do a clean install for major upgrades
I don't: I think I last reinstalled my (debian/amd64) desktop in about 2007 or so, when amd64 became an official port. I may have been running it earlier as testing/sid, but I really don't remember.
The above are all 64bit. I don't want to contemplate the mess trying to push something from 32bit to 64bit cleanly.
For the hell of it, I tried this some time back. It does work on Lite if you're prepared to muck about with it, but there's absolutely no way I'd recommend it, and you need to have some experience of the more arcane bits of Multiarch.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

sparseMatrix
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:07 pm

Re: Just wanted to weigh in on the issue of unsupported full upgrades via apt/apt-update (aka 'full upgrade').

Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:41 pm

UPDATE:
I just did a successful full upgrade.

I have the /boot/config.txt and kernel configured for 64bit
I was fully updated on buster
I added a line to my sources file for bullseye/main
I updated
I did full-upgrade

Not a recipe for success, per se - just how things are here where it worked this time :)

REUPDATE:
Feeling positively cocky at this point, I went for dist-upgrade, and except for a handful of media libs held back, that even worked.

It also has made some changes to my desktop, but I have not yet quantified those changes to the extent I am confident articulating them.

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