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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:22 am

My first car, had no mats, no heater, vacuum wipers & rod brakes, why do we need 'chips' at all........
Job security?

Just had a new hire car for a week while mine was in the shop.
Some weird beeping and weird steering handling.
Turned out there was a lane keeping/warning function built into the car.

Electric steering is great for the nanny state.
It did worry me every time it thought it could drive better than me.
Bit of a fight going on at the steering wheel.
What happens when the car computer decides it knows better than the driver?

Spent a week checking it's capabilities, it's not a Tesla autopilot, easy to trick off the motorways.
Flat open roads it is fine, narrow curving hilly roads it cannot cope.
Had to fight the desire to pull it apart to see how it worked and "improve" the code ;)
It needs better chips and code :lol:

Fast progress in just the last few years.
Still cannot beat the old milkman's cart horse.
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DougieLawson
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:44 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:22 am


Just had a new hire car for a week while mine was in the shop.
Some weird beeping and weird steering handling.
Turned out there was a lane keeping/warning function built into the car.
My Kia Niro EV has that. It took a while to get used to it, but it doesn't half enhance safety. There is a button to disable it, as it's not useful in roadworks where you have to cross the white lines.

Another feature I didn't expect was the auto-dipping headlights, that's faster than I can react to an oncoming car.

The other one I really love is the adaptive, hazard detecting cruise control. My wife wouldn't use the cruise control in our old Toyota Prius, she won't drive on the motorway without it in the Kia.

In general adding a bucket load of computing to the car (obviously it needs that the for the EV on-board charger) isn't a bad thing. If I don't like it I'll blame my brother, he works for a company designing, building and testing this voodoo.
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:47 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:22 am
My first car, had no mats, no heater, vacuum wipers & rod brakes, why do we need 'chips' at all........
Job security?

Just had a new hire car for a week while mine was in the shop.
Some weird beeping and weird steering handling.
Turned out there was a lane keeping/warning function built into the car.

Electric steering is great for the nanny state.
It did worry me every time it thought it could drive better than me.
Bit of a fight going on at the steering wheel.
What happens when the car computer decides it knows better than the driver?

Spent a week checking it's capabilities, it's not a Tesla autopilot, easy to trick off the motorways.
Flat open roads it is fine, narrow curving hilly roads it cannot cope.
Had to fight the desire to pull it apart to see how it worked and "improve" the code ;)
It needs better chips and code :lol:

Fast progress in just the last few years.
Still cannot beat the old milkman's cart horse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Ludd
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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thagrol
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:12 am

Kids today, eh?

More seriously, if you're under 50 you've probably never driven a car without any modern computerised driver aids or engine management.

ABS, ECU, speed sensitive power steering, etc. have made huge, positive difference to safety (no ABS? can't just stamp on the brakes in an emergency - that way lies a skid). And driver comfort, fuel economy (I can't be the only person to have driven miles with the manual choke out), ...

Sure back in the day there was a lot more you could fix yourself but there was a lot more you could mess up when trying to do so too.
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andrum99
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:23 am

thagrol wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:12 am
Kids today, eh?

More seriously, if you're under 50 you've probably never driven a car without any modern computerised driver aids or engine management.

ABS, ECU, speed sensitive power steering, etc. have made huge, positive difference to safety (no ABS? can't just stamp on the brakes in an emergency - that way lies a skid). And driver comfort, fuel economy (I can't be the only person to have driven miles with the manual choke out), ...

Sure back in the day there was a lot more you could fix yourself but there was a lot more you could mess up when trying to do so too.
Yup. I'm 43 and the first car I drove, apart from the one I learnt on, had an ECU. No power steering or ABS - it was the base model. All side windows were power windows, which was rare on the base model in those days. Current car has speed-sensitive power steering which is very useful. Also has a 'speed limiter' which does not such thing, as it doesn't touch the brake. Even has traction control. Still has keyed ignition though - none of this stupid keyless start nonsense where the fob battery needs changed every 5 minutes.

andrum99
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:28 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:44 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:22 am


Just had a new hire car for a week while mine was in the shop.
Some weird beeping and weird steering handling.
Turned out there was a lane keeping/warning function built into the car.
My Kia Niro EV has that. It took a while to get used to it, but it doesn't half enhance safety. There is a button to disable it, as it's not useful in roadworks where you have to cross the white lines.

Another feature I didn't expect was the auto-dipping headlights, that's faster than I can react to an oncoming car.

The other one I really love is the adaptive, hazard detecting cruise control. My wife wouldn't use the cruise control in our old Toyota Prius, she won't drive on the motorway without it in the Kia.

In general adding a bucket load of computing to the car (obviously it needs that the for the EV on-board charger) isn't a bad thing. If I don't like it I'll blame my brother, he works for a company designing, building and testing this voodoo.
Nope. The more automation you add, the less the driver has to do, the less able drivers become. Also, there's a thing called risk compensation: the safer the user perceives a device to be, the more unsafely they will use it.

Also, if the only time the feature activates is when it gets it wrong, then it's just an unnecessary distraction to the drive, which makes the vehicle less safe, not more.

Euro NCAP actually award points for the lane warning/lane assist features. Unfortunately, this means the dealer is rather reluctant to switch it off permanently for you.

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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:34 am

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:28 am

Nope. The more automation you add, the less the driver has to do, the less able drivers become. Also, there's a thing called risk compensation: the safer the user perceives a device to be, the more unsafely they will use it.
Anything that reduces the driver workload makes the whole system safer. I can concentrate more on what's happening with the other road users because the automation is helping me to control my car.

The thing I miss from the Toyota is the heads-up speed and sat-nav display.
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thagrol
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:40 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:34 am
The thing I miss from the Toyota is the heads-up speed and sat-nav display.
That reminds me of the things I miss most from the old days: bonnets(hoods for you yanks) you could see the end of and wing mirrors. You could see what was in them without turning your head towards the door.

I guess door mirrors are safer for pedestrians though.
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Heater
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:45 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:47 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Ludd
Hmm...

As far as I can tell the original Ned Ludd, if that was actually his name, smashed a machine after being abused by his employer.

The later Ludditte movement was not objecting to new technology, they were skilled and familiar with it. They were protesting the appalling working conditions and low pay of those having to work in the new era of factories and industrialisation. Against the loss of individual autonomy as corporate bosses took control.

Issues that are still playing out to this day.
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:46 pm

The car I drive at the moment is the first one I've had with all that electricky stuff in it. Despite my previous car being near the top of the range it didn't have that. Electric front windows, central locking and automatic choke were the fancy bits on that one. No ABS, ECU or anything like that.
Unreadable squiggle

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 am

My Kia Niro EV has that. It took a while to get used to it, but it doesn't half enhance safety. There is a button to disable it, as it's not useful in roadworks where you have to cross the white lines.
The rental I had was a Kia Sportage and lots of roadworks in my neighborhood.
Sounds like Kia have a standard lanekeeper computer.
Wondering if they use Samsung CPU's?

Got a yelled warning from the wife and a nagging message on the dash screen when I took my hands off the wheel.
How did the car know?
Force feedback on the wheel or a camera watching me?
Interesting tech, hard to resist pulling the car apart :lol:

A few careers/decades ago I was talking to and selling bits to Automotive Electronics Engineers.
8bit CPUs and lots of 100K res/0.1uF caps.
My first 1970's car had fuel injectors, analog computer and a cruise control I fitted.
Plus lots of other bits I added, parts and a toolkit to fix anything when it broke ;)

I doubt I can fix anything in todays cars, probably illegal now anyway.
Filling the tank and changing the spare tire is about it now.
EVs and auto chargers will just leave me with changing tires?

Is there any open source lane keeper code around?
Wondering if I can use that for a Pi lawnmower.
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ejolson
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:15 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 am
My Kia Niro EV has that. It took a while to get used to it, but it doesn't half enhance safety. There is a button to disable it, as it's not useful in roadworks where you have to cross the white lines.
The rental I had was a Kia Sportage and lots of roadworks in my neighborhood.
Sounds like Kia have a standard lanekeeper computer.
Wondering if they use Samsung CPU's?

Got a yelled warning from the wife and a nagging message on the dash screen when I took my hands off the wheel.
How did the car know?
Force feedback on the wheel or a camera watching me?
Interesting tech, hard to resist pulling the car apart :lol:

A few careers/decades ago I was talking to and selling bits to Automotive Electronics Engineers.
8bit CPUs and lots of 100K res/0.1uF caps.
My first 1970's car had fuel injectors, analog computer and a cruise control I fitted.
Plus lots of other bits I added, parts and a toolkit to fix anything when it broke ;)

I doubt I can fix anything in todays cars, probably illegal now anyway.
Filling the tank and changing the spare tire is about it now.
EVs and auto chargers will just leave me with changing tires?

Is there any open source lane keeper code around?
Wondering if I can use that for a Pi lawnmower.
Rather than a lawnmower, it might be safer to construct a sandwich delivery robot. This year there are a bunch of them roaming about the university campus. They even manage to cross the street at the marked crossing. I wonder how difficult it would be to make one using a Raspberry Pi.

cleverca22
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:18 am

andrum99 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:28 am
Also, there's a thing called risk compensation: the safer the user perceives a device to be, the more unsafely they will use it.
i saw something related in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GneRo08cADc

the problem with self driving cars, is that they are too careful and too nice of a driver
pedestrians will be able to just walk into a busy street without checking both ways, and the cars will stop

so that both makes the pedestrians more careless, and entirely blocks all traffic because the cars are too nice of a driver

they jokingly said in that video, that it would be better if the car would roll the dice, and hit people 5% of the time, just to remind people that they should respect the cars

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:42 am

Never would have known about this feature unless I had a new car as a rental.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_depa ... ing_system

I did think it would be easier if they had better markings on the roads.
Expect QR codes on roads near you soon?
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:57 am

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/teste ... ed-rethink
Plenty of YTs and posts from Kia owners about lanekeeper being default to on.
Euro NCAP regulations for the world.
Doesn't work on the rubbish secondary roads we have in Oz.
Fighting that steering wheel in roadworks with big holes on either side is not pleasant.
I bet they have legislation to protect them in case of computer accidents.
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ejolson
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:11 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:57 am
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/teste ... ed-rethink
Plenty of YTs and posts from Kia owners about lanekeeper being default to on.
Euro NCAP regulations for the world.
Doesn't work on the rubbish secondary roads we have in Oz.
Fighting that steering wheel in roadworks with big holes on either side is not pleasant.
I bet they have legislation to protect them in case of computer accidents.
Were you able to turn it off?

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:39 am

Were you able to turn it off?
No, I gladly handed it back to the rental place and picked up my 4 year old clunker from the repair shop.

Plenty of YTs from Kia showing off their fancy new capabilities.
Plenty of forum posts from Kia owners complaining about this feature.

Regulating away personal responsibility to a car manufacture code monkey seems unaccountable to me.
Been coding, sort of, for 40 years and I am horrible at it.
Now I am supposed to trust a team of whippersnappers because some law maker says so?

Lots of things to think about if/when I get my next car.
Expect the insurance companies to get on board, high premiums if you have a dumb car.

Thinking of changing my name to Ned and breeding horses.
So why did that picture of Ned have him looking like a Monty Python skit?
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thagrol
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:29 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:05 am
Is there any open source lane keeper code around?
Wondering if I can use that for a Pi lawnmower.
open pilot? MIght need to paint some lines on your lawn though.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: Car chip shortage, and RP 2040?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:25 pm

open pilot? MIght need to paint some lines on your lawn though.
Wonder if the Comma AI is better than the Kia one?

Most robot mowers use a perimeter wire.
Ok if you have a nice neat lawn, not so good if you have the road works equivalent backyard :lol:
Some places will need a chainsaw attachment.

Been waiting for some decent BLE 5.1 navigation modules with AoA/AoD antennas.
Opengarden?
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