will the raspberry pi get free software cpu?

[fjr]

Upton wanted to provide a low priced computer. Likely broadcom provided the lowest price and
free software had to take a backseat.

Now millions of raspberry pis have been sold. In terms of free software cf software you may use,
share, modify and redistribute the raspberry pi is terrible because it will not run without non
free software. There are arm cpus which will start and run on free sofware only. Some graphic
functions will not be supported.

One such arm mainboard is the rock64. It is said to supersede raspberry pi by far on
performance.
https://a1w.ca/post-2018-01-01-year-of- ... sktop.html

Can raspberry pi shift to a cpu which will run on free software only? You can say why bother about
this matter because there already are arm mainboards like the rock64. The support around
the rasberry pi is well organized. I think a free software only capable raspberry pi would
benifite free software.

Do raspberry pi officials comment on forum posts?

[bensimmo]

They do and a search will find similar posts
They use Broadcom ,because they know Broadcom. Many worked for Broadcom, some have patents related to Broadcom.
They understand the hardware used.

They don't need to be 'free, as in open source I assume'. They make the money to pay for the development, their wages and the RPF charity funding to support education.
None of that needs 'free' and I doubt the majority of 20Million sales are worried about it either.

Their model works, buy others if you need 'free' is the common answer.

For me I just go for what works for me, the Pi eco system does that nicely. It maybe because I'm in the UK, I don't know.

[Heater]

fjr,

Do raspberry pi officials comment on forum posts?

Yes they do. And this matter has been discussed at length since the beginning of the Pi.

As it stands everything in the Linux you need to run on the Pi is Free and Open Source. From the kernel, it's drivers and up, like Debian is for example.

As it stands the Pi requires a closed source blob to boot. As does every PC that boots into Linux via it's BIOS.

Whilst I love the idea of a fully open source world, including the Pi, we have far bigger problems on the closed proprietary front in the bigger world of everyone's PC's, tablets and phones.

Can I ask you? What machines do you use that are fully Open Source and/or Free Software?

Don't forget that as soon as you use a hard drive, SD card, USB stick, WiFi chip, graphics card, etc, etc your system is dependent on the closed source software that resides in it's firmware.

[tech-mech]

I am in the USA and have never had any problems using a Pi.

I have added many programs to my different cards (some used for testing only) and have yet to see any need to even look for software I would need to pay for.

Some programs that cost for an x86 based system are offered free for the Pi.

Dale

[Heater]

tech-mech,

I am in the USA and have never had any problems using a Pi.

Why might one suspect you would?

Some programs that cost for an x86 based system are offered free for the Pi.

I don't believe we are talking about "free" as in no cost here. Rather it's about "free" as in Free Software:
https://www.fsf.org/

The freedom to use, copy, distribute, study, modify software.

The freedom to actually see what it does.

[W. H. Heydt]

For me I just go for what works for me, the Pi eco system does that nicely. It maybe because I'm in the UK, I don't know.

Likewise for me...in the US.

On the general thread issues...

Yes, there are any number of boards out there that are faster and/or have more memory and/or have more--or better--features than the Pi. BUT, so far as I can tell, there is no board out there that has better--or even anywhere near as good--support. If you really need some feature the Pi doesn't have, then get a baord that has that feature. For a specific purpose, I use a Cubieboard 2 and a Cubieboard and that is solely because those boards have a SATA connection. At this point, they are in all other respects inferior to Pis, even the Pi2Bv1.2...save for RAM, where they have the same 1GB that recent Pis have. As soon as a Pi shows up that has faster I/O (probably in the form of USB 3), I'll cheerfully switch them out.

If the RPF were a public (stock) corporation, I'd buy stock in it. They're doing SBCs right.

[wren]

ARM is quite possibly the worst platform for blob free hardware.
https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/
https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

[Gavinmc42]

fry, you are free to write your own bootloader code.
https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware

Most of the special VC4 GPU code is in start.elf.
This contains licensed libraries etc that run on the ThreedX OS on the VC4.
Lots of stuff buried in there, camera lens correction, h.264, jpeg......

If you don't need that you are free from using that too.
Most of the time these days I don't even use a Linux OS.
https://ultibo.org/

Any SOC that has a GPU, is the GPU code free(open)?
Is there an open source GPU?
I would love one that can be added to a RISC-V.

Not sure but I think the ARM part of the Pi SOC is all open, only the GPU part has closed code?
Eric Anholt's work with the Mesa3D/VC4/5 is opening some stuff up.

Rock64 has a RKL3328 SOC which has a Mali-450MP4.
Is Mali an Open source GPU yet?

[jamesh]

Upton wanted to provide a low priced computer. Likely broadcom provided the lowest price and
free software had to take a backseat.

Now millions of raspberry pis have been sold. In terms of free software cf software you may use,
share, modify and redistribute the raspberry pi is terrible because it will not run without non
free software. There are arm cpus which will start and run on free sofware only. Some graphic
functions will not be supported.

One such arm mainboard is the rock64. It is said to supersede raspberry pi by far on
performance.
https://a1w.ca/post-2018-01-01-year-of- ... sktop.html

Can raspberry pi shift to a cpu which will run on free software only? You can say why bother about
this matter because there already are arm mainboards like the rock64. The support around
the rasberry pi is well organized. I think a free software only capable raspberry pi would
benifite free software.

Do raspberry pi officials comment on forum posts?

Most times this question comes up I ask this, usually to myself...

What will you personally get from making the firmware open source, that makes your usage of the Pi better?

The answer, for the huge vast majority of people, is nothing. Nada. Zero.



So no, the Pi won't be going entirely OS in the near future. We've done as much as we can to open source as much code as possible (and we got as load of stick for that, which doesn't exactly make us particularly inclined to do any more anyway)

[k-pi]

As long as you can run a free open source O/S on your RPi, you have as much freedom as any other computer board.

There are a few things I'd like to see on these boards, but as is stated, these boards are primarily aimed at getting people interested in programming/creating, & have a marvellous back up from the Foundation themselves, what other SBC manufacturer offers that.

Take them for what they are.

[fruitoftheloom]

Upton wanted to provide a low priced computer. Likely broadcom provided the lowest price and
free software had to take a backseat.

Now millions of raspberry pis have been sold. In terms of free software cf software you may use,
share, modify and redistribute the raspberry pi is terrible because it will not run without non
free software. There are arm cpus which will start and run on free sofware only. Some graphic
functions will not be supported.

One such arm mainboard is the rock64. It is said to supersede raspberry pi by far on
performance.
https://a1w.ca/post-2018-01-01-year-of- ... sktop.html

Can raspberry pi shift to a cpu which will run on free software only? You can say why bother about
this matter because there already are arm mainboards like the rock64. The support around
the rasberry pi is well organized. I think a free software only capable raspberry pi would
benifite free software.

Do raspberry pi officials comment on forum posts?

Purchase a different SBC if it is important to you, after all nothing has changed and the RPi has been around for 8 years:

https://www.96boards.org/products/ce/

[hippy]

Can raspberry pi shift to a cpu which will run on free software only?

It could. But whether it will, whether it should, or whether there would be any real gain or benefit in doing so, is open to debate. We will have to wait and see what the Pi 4 is, and what lies beyond that.

[W. H. Heydt]

What I have always found interesting on this topic is that, if the Pi had on-board ROM (or even EEPROM) that contained the binary blob, it would be rated as an Open Source device. But because that blob sits (usually) on an SD card and can be updated easily and regularly, the whole system *isn't* classed as Open Source.

As it is, the Pi is at least as Open Source as a PC running Linux.

People should stop making ideal the enemy of pretty darned good.

[jamesh]

Can raspberry pi shift to a cpu which will run on free software only?

It could. But whether it will, whether it should, or whether there would be any real gain or benefit in doing so, is open to debate. We will have to wait and see what the Pi 4 is, and what lies beyond that.

There are only downsides to moving to a fully open CPU (is there one that has the same feature set?). It's HUGE amount of work to make everything work in the same way it does now. Camera stops working, LCD's stop working, HAT's stop working. We effectively lose a lot of backwards compatibility that woudl requrie a huge amount of work to get back. We don't have the manpower to do that. Or the money.

[DougieLawson]

What I have always found interesting on this topic is that, if the Pi had on-board ROM (or even EEPROM) that contained the binary blob, it would be rated as an Open Source device. But because that blob sits (usually) on an SD card and can be updated easily and regularly, the whole system *isn't* classed as Open Source.

IMNSHO, that's because the folks who deem stuff as open hardware are clueless, brain-dead, morons.

[Heater]

Dougie,

IMNSHO, that's because the folks who deem stuff as open hardware are clueless, brain-dead, morons.

As far as I can tell you have never expressed an opinion humbly

Now, nobody has been talking about "open hardware" in this thread so far. That is a whole other can of worms.

It does not help that our OP asks about "free software cpu" which makes no sense at all.

As it stands, the closed source binary blob of software that boots the video core, which subsequently boots you operating system on the ARM, owns the machine. It can see all your memory all the time as Raspbian runs. Raspbian knows nothing of this and can do nothing about it.

For some this is an issue.

Of course this is the same issue we have with any modern PC. What with the "management engines" and whatever software runs on your Intel processors in ring -1 or whatever. Places where your OS cannot see, be it Linux or Windows or whatever.

Is it really so that those clamoring for a "Free Software" Raspberry Pi are already using totally Free Software PC's, laptops and such? I seriously doubt it. They should start their campaign closer to home.

[hippy]

Is it really so that those clamoring for a "Free Software" Raspberry Pi are already using totally Free Software PC's, laptops and such? I seriously doubt it. They should start their campaign closer to home.

It makes sense to start where one sees the greatest chance of success, hope one can influence there, and have that ultimately leading to others following suit, eventually becoming a cascade.

From that perspective it would be reasonable to see the Pi as a good starting point, especially as its aims are educational, it's a charity, its wanting to do good in the world rather than serving its own self-interests, and, because some Pi competitors are already considered more open, there would be hope that would be seen as an incentive to make the move.

If one cannot flatten a molehill one has little chance of flattening a mountain. Start with the molehill.

[mahjongg]

well then its a fail immediately as I cannot see the RPF switching to a non ARM compatible CPU in near or far away future.
Its clear to me the PI is the "wrong molehill" to start with.

IMHO except when the ARM foundation becomes insane and starts laying on all kinds of insane restrictions on the use of an ARM CPU, or is found to do something evil with their IP which threatens our freedoms, I see no real use for any open source CPU, but that is just me.
Although in principle I'm all for such a development.

can I ask for a civil discussion please.....

[Heater]

mahjongg,

...I cannot see the RPF switching to a non ARM compatible CPU in near or far away future...

I also feel this is very unlikely. It would cause a turmoil of incompatibility. Basically starting over from scratch.

IMHO except when the ARM foundation...

Wait up. What "ARM foundation"? The ARM IP is licensed from ARM Holdings, a regular for profit corporation recently acquired by SoftBank of Japan.

...becomes insane and starts laying on all kinds of insane restrictions on the use of an ARM CPU

Arguably this has always been true. If you try and manufacture a chip with your own implementation of the ARM instruction set then ARM will set their lawyer attack dogs on you.

...or is found to do something evil with their IP which threatens our freedoms,

Perhaps not evil as such but the idea that we cannot implement an ISA specification our own way certainly is a limit on freedom.

I see no real use for any open source CPU

Despite the badly worded title of fjr's thread here I don't see that he or anyone else is asking for an actual open source CPU or other hardware.

Actually the thing that some object to is the closed source binary blob that runs on the Video Core. Which "owns" the Pi at run time. The Video Core is nothing to do with ARM, it's a Broadcom product.

Although in principle I'm all for such a development.

Yes! Bring it on. An open source hardware RISC V processor based Raspberry Pi. Please have a chat to the LowRisc guys across town in Cambridge.

[hippy]

well then its a fail immediately as I cannot see the RPF switching to a non ARM compatible CPU in near or far away future.

I don't see that anyone was suggesting the Pi has to move away from an ARM architecture. The processors people point to which they say are 'open' or run only 'free software' are usually ARM CPU-based.

can I ask for a civil discussion please.....

I guess you mean like not calling people "clueless, brain-dead, morons", or is that okay seeing as that's still there ?

[fjr]

They use Broadcom ,because they know Broadcom. Many worked for Broadcom, some have patents related to Broadcom.

Do raspberry pi officials have financial interests in broadcom?

None of that needs 'free' and I doubt the majority of 20Million sales are worried about it either.

Probably not. But some of them maybe would be if they knew about the implications
on non free software.

As does every PC that boots into Linux via it's BIOS.

https://libreboot.org/
https://www.armbian.com/download/
On armbians forum I was told a big number of the listed arm mainboards
will boot on uboot. If you install armbian stretch and run

Code: Select all

apt purge iozone3 armbian-firmware

you will likely get a free software computer. Though nobody has
made an audit regarding non free software in armbian stretch.
I installed armbian stretch on a orange pi one and ran

Code: Select all

apt purge iozone3 armbian-firmware

The computer starts and runs programs. I noticed no differences compared
to before running

Code: Select all

apt purge iozone3 armbian-firmware

we have far bigger problems on the closed proprietary front in the bigger world of everyone's PC's, tablets and phones.

Correct. Not a reason to not ask raspberry pi what options they have. Had the
raspberry pi been a free software computer we would likely have had
millions more free software computers.

Can I ask you? What machines do you use that are fully Open Source and/or Free Software?

Hypocrisy is everywhere. I want people to know about the matter. Secondly do as much
as possible about the matter. I have libreboot compatible computers. I will attempt to libreboot flash one of them.It is a comprehensive task. If I destroy the computer
doing so I will not try to libreboot flash the others. I do not buy computer devices which will not run on debian main. I wanted to test freedombox and
obtained a beaglebone black because it is able to run a free software version of.
Had raspberry pi been a free software computer then a free software
version of freedombox could have been provided to raspberry pi users. Stallman has
no mobile phone. He considers it a piece of surveillance equipment. I agree. But I
have a replicant phone.

you use a hard drive, SD card, USB stick, WiFi chip, graphics card, etc, etc your system is dependent on the closed source software that resides in it's firmware.

You are right. I am aware any of your listed devices can compromise the computer.
That is why I want hardware sellers to make free software a priority.
My wifi cards and graphics cards run on free software.

so far as I can tell, there is no board out there that has better--or even anywhere near as good--support.

You are likely right. If raspberry pi selected a free software cpu it would be a
step forward for free software.

If you really need some feature the Pi doesn't have, then get a baord that has that feature.

I have a raspberry pi 0. I do not use it other than to get informed about the computer. Like a windows computer I have. My post it not about getting a computer. It is about if raspberry
pi can get better on free software.

ARM is quite possibly the worst platform for blob free hardware.

Rather the opposite. According to libreboot no new x86 cpu will be able to get libreboot compatible.

raptorcs.com

In an email about an atx powerpc pc or powerpc notebook, raptor dismissed the option because of lack of customers and suggested to use arm or libreboot computers.

fry, you are free to write your own bootloader code.

Which I do not have the skills for.

Any SOC that has a GPU, is the GPU code free(open)? Is there an open source GPU?

To my knowledge no. Fully software supported gpu or vpu is not a requirement
in order to start and run programs on a computer. I have heard reverse engineering
is possible. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bo ... nux-kernel

What will you personally get from making the firmware open source, that makes your usage of the Pi better?

Can I assume you are stating raspberry pi's official policy on the matter?
It is about subjugation. Either you control the computer or you subjugate to it.

The answer, for the huge vast majority of people, is nothing. Nada. Zero.

Does not make it better. Because raspberry pi knows about the matter. Raspberry pis are shipped in the millions and directed
at pupils so you have a major responsibility about the matter of free software.

We've done as much as we can to open source as much code as possible

Which is good.

we got as load of stick for that

How? Can you tell more?

As long as you can run a free open source O/S on your RPi, you have as much freedom as any other computer board.

Because a number of arm mainboards are uboot supported I think you are wrong.

boards are primarily aimed at getting people interested in programming/creating

Another argument in favor of selecting free software cpus. You cannot teach
about it if you cannot access the source code.

marvellous back up from the Foundation themselves, what other SBC manufacturer offers that.

Why raspberry pi moving to a free software cpu would be beneficial to free software.
Think about a rk3328 cpu raspberry pi. Combining its performance and raspberry pi's
organizing skills. What is wanted is a rock64 run by raspberry pi.

RPi has been around for 8 years

Should not stop you from asking raspberry pi to do better.

What I have always found interesting on this topic is that, if the Pi had on-board ROM (or even EEPROM) that contained the binary blob, it would be rated as an Open Source device.

Like the ec on libreboot computers?
Free software foundation's stand is, we have no better option and you cannot
update the ec. Because the respect your freedom certificate standard
accepts ec's we do not have the source code for, I oppose it.

There are only downsides to moving to a fully open CPU

No, every device able to run entirely on free software is an improvement.

is there one that has the same feature set?

It is your task to keep yourself informed. Doesn't the rk3288 and rk3328
equal the raspberry pi? Are the rock64 specifications worse than raspberry pi's?

It's HUGE amount of work to make everything work in the same way it does now. Camera stops working, LCD's stop working, HAT's stop working. We effectively lose a lot of backwards compatibility that woudl requrie a huge amount of work to get back. We don't have the manpower to do that. Or the money.

It appears you are locked in. If the chosen cpus were your only option to get the
raspberry pi low priced or you did not have the skills to manufacture a raspberry
pi having another cpu then it is comprehensible arguments. But what stands is
you have shipped millions of computers which are terrible about free
software. Unfortunately know you cannot do better.

We don't have the manpower to do that. Or the money.

Important pieces of information. Because if you are able to correct this matter
and do not, it would reflect worse on raspberry pi.

MNSHO, that's because the folks who deem stuff as open hardware are clueless, brain-dead, morons.

The free software foundation knew what they did.

It does not help that our OP asks about "free software cpu" which makes no sense at all.

Did you understand what I meant? In that case you contradicted yourself. If not
then how can you respond to my post?

As it stands, the closed source binary blob of software that boots the video core, which subsequently boots you operating system on the ARM, owns the machine. It can see all your memory all the time as Raspbian runs. Raspbian knows nothing of this and can do nothing about it.

Which is why it is relevant to ask raspberry pi if they can select a better cpu. I do
not expect intel, microsoft or apple to release all their source code. I wanted
to know if the raspberry pi can get improved.

It is more than that. What hardware does raspberry pi think they can justify to
ship to people? Both people who know about the matter and those who do not.

Of course this is the same issue we have with any modern PC. What with the "management engines" and whatever software runs on your Intel processors in ring -1 or whatever. Places where your OS cannot see, be it Linux or Windows or whatever.

A reason to have raspberry pi provide a free software computer.

Is it really so that those clamoring for a "Free Software" Raspberry Pi are already using totally Free Software PC's, laptops and such? I seriously doubt it.

Some do. If a person is in favor of free software but his computer tasks require
a performance which libreboot computers cannot show, I am not going to blame
him. I could buy a talos computer but I am not going to because the talos
offers a lot of specifications I have no use for. If a new free software notebook
was for sale at an adequate price I would get one. You are getting off track
because this is about what raspberry pi can do. If raspberry pi would sell
a free software computer and a person in favor of free software then bought
a comparable non free computer then you could hold it against him.

It makes sense to start where one sees the greatest chance of success, hope one can influence there, and have that ultimately leading to others following suit, eventually becoming a cascade.

Correct. My objective was smaller. What can raspberry pi do?

From that perspective it would be reasonable to see the Pi as a good starting point, especially as its aims are educational, it's a charity, its wanting to do good in the world rather than serving its own self-interests, and, because some Pi competitors are already considered more open, there would be hope that would be seen as an incentive to make the move.

Correct.

Its clear to me the PI is the "wrong molehill" to start with.

How can you know if you do not ask them?

ARM foundation becomes insane and starts laying on all kinds of insane restrictions on the use of an ARM CPU, or is found to do something evil with their IP which threatens our freedoms

I disagree. We should not let it be up to arm to set the threshold. We shall demand free
software. Arm is nothing more than a best option. Only good actors are
riscv and raptor.

Perhaps not evil as such but the idea that we cannot implement an ISA specification our own way certainly is a limit on freedom.

More than that. It is not acceptable. Why did nsa demand to get to know how
to disable the me from intel? Because they could not accept anyone having
such a leverage over their hardware. If that is the only backdoor.

don't see that he or anyone else is asking for an actual open source CPU or other hardware.

I am not asking raspberry pi for such a cpu because no one is available. In general
I do. You should inform yourself about https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed

Actually the thing that some object to is the closed source binary blob

Any piece of software which is non free software.

have a chat to the LowRisc guys across town in Cambridge.

Alex Bradbury was part of making the raspberry pi. Now he makes the lowrisc.

[fjr]

Who moved my post?

I want to ask why it was moved?

[bensimmo]

I guess a mod will have moved it, it's only gone to off-topic and the mods have the right to do that

I still don't get the benefit to me and the general people who use the Pi with having free hardware, possibly a nice or have , but not an essential.
I don't get the advantage to RaspberryPi Foundation either. They seem quite happy with what they are doing.
Exactly how would it help them, how would it help teaching programming and computing to children.
It works now. 'Free OS software/hardware isn't the stumbling block here.

In response to your question, I have no idea if anyone has a vested interest in Broadcom.
It's up to you to keep yourself informed on that matter. (As you would put it)

It may be important to you and you are of course free to use other hardware if you don't like it as RPT are free to build the hardware as they wish, can afford and can support.

Just my opinion though, others do have other opinions.

[Heater]

A lot of us Free and Open Source software supporters sympathize with your sentiment.

No doubt your post was moved because it is off topic for any other forum section.

I think the bottom line is something like this...

1) Eben Upton conceived the idea of a cheap computer for kids to learn programming on.

2) The original incarnations were built with 8 bit ATMEL chips. Which proved inadequate for what he had in mind.

3) Eben took a job at Broadcom and the possibility of using one of their old Video cores and an ARM turned up.

4) So that is what they did. And that's how we got the super cheap Pi.

My take is that if they had insisted on open source everything and hence using some other manufacturers ARM SoC the Pi idea would never have seen the light of day.

Luckily it did see the light of day. And become a big hit. And hence inspire others to compete. With perhaps more open solutions.

Now: It would really help your cause if you would not talk about "free software cpu" and such. That conflates hardware with software. Even Richard Stallman does not do that and it confuses people, as we have seen in this thread.

[rpdom]

Who moved my post?

I want to ask why it was moved?

Probably because it was in the wrong section.

It is obviously Off Topic, so that is where it belongs.

I guess someone (not me) reported it.