georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:47 am

Hi all.

Whos' all used a MSATA expansion via a USB port to expand their RPI4'B's storage.

Plan is to use a PoE HAT on top and a MSata expansion for expanded storage, OS will stay on a SD card, all volatile/active data will be pushed to the MSata.

Planning a small cluster...

G

Cloudcentric
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Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:13 am

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:15 am

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:47 am
Hi all.

Whos' all used a MSATA expansion via a USB port to expand their RPI4'B's storage.

Plan is to use a PoE HAT on top and a MSata expansion for expanded storage, OS will stay on a SD card, all volatile/active data will be pushed to the MSata.

Planning a small cluster...

G

mSata will require an USB to mSata adaptor, have you actually purchased these items ??


If not it *may* be more cost effective to buy a USB3 Hard Drive, or a SSD Sata Drive / USB3-Sata


Whatever you choose ASMedia Controller Chipsets appear to be the most reliable.
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HawaiianPi
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:41 am

I've used mSATA but I see no advantage other than physical size (a "normal" 2.5 inch SATA SSD will cost less and do the same job).

I used to have one of the X{some number I can't remember} mSATA adapters for the Pi, but I realized it was just and over-priced USB-SATA adapter and started using less expensive USB-SATA adapter cables and 2.5 inch SSD models.

Also, the mSATA form-factor is pretty much obsolete. For better or worse it's been replaced by M.2 and most major manufacturers have already discontinued them. Even with M.2 the less power hungry SATA models are on their way out (Samsung and Crucial have discontinued them, and probably others as well). Which leaves NVMe that are usually too power hungry to be used on a Pi USB port (1.2A max shared by all 4 ports).

So yes, you *could* use mSATA if you really wanted to, and you could find the mSATA form-factor SSD models you need, and you could find a USB 3.0 adapter that's compatible with the Pi 4B (many aren't). My recommendation would be to use 2.5 inch SATA SSD models with known-compatible USB 3.0 adapter cables.
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LTolledo
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:00 pm

I've used mSATA on my RPi3B+, when it was installed on the PiTop v1.0
it was in a mSATA to USB3.0 adapter/case with JMicron chipset....
still good for the RPi3B+, but not for the RPi4B

I use it now as a data drive, installed in a mSATA to 2.5" SSD case...together with SATA to USB adapters with either JM or ASM chipset ....
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georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:23 pm

... I like this... USB-SATA adapter cables and 2.5 inch SSD models.

Drives external to case... SATA to USB cable. Any chance you have a link to where I can get this cable will ask around this side also.

G

georgelza
Posts: 130
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:30 pm

How about M.2

What options are there to connect that to the RPI4b,

Keeping in mind it's going to be a data drive... and that I'm using the pins already for a PoE+ HAT... might just be cheapest to go SATA -> USB cable as per above, easy to then for cheap swop out for larger SSD drives later
G

georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:33 pm

240GB SSD = 240GB M.2

With the SSD I will need a cable only with the M.2 I will need a little mounting board and cable, but can potentially be lower profile...

G

ejolson
Posts: 8266
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:42 pm

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:23 pm
... I like this... USB-SATA adapter cables and 2.5 inch SSD models.

Drives external to case... SATA to USB cable. Any chance you have a link to where I can get this cable will ask around this side also.

G
Unless designing a Hadoop cluster, it may be more convenient to network boot sdcard-less Pi computers that neither have any directly-attached USB storage. Then all you need is a well-provisioned NAS to provide storage to the cluster. Note that the NAS could be another Pi--possibly an 8GB Pi 4B with an attached four-bay USB disk enclosure--or an old PC new enough that it has built-in gigabit Ethernet running Linux.

georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:22 pm

I'm planning a K3S cluster, also co-hosting a Elastic Cluster, maybe some Redis and cassandra also.

If it was just about storage I could remote mount Zinio provisioned storage from my TrueNAS (10TB Free).

My thought pattern atm is leading me to the M.2 enclosure + M.2 (bought separately) accessed via a USB3 interface for now, can always take the M.2 out later and direct mount vi an adapter or something when the PoE+ HAT is not used.

G

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thagrol
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:12 pm

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:30 pm
How about M.2
Don't bother. SATA M2 will be more expensive for no benefit. NVMe requires 4x PCIe (potentially v4) lanes for best performance. The 4B, 400, and CM4 have one v2 lane.
What options are there to connect that to the RPI4b,
On everything except the CM4: USB. On the CM4 PCIe v2 x1
Keeping in mind it's going to be a data drive... and that I'm using the pins already for a PoE+ HAT... might just be cheapest to go SATA -> USB cable as per above, easy to then for cheap swop out for larger SSD drives later
G
AFAIK with two exceptions* there is no drive interface that connects via or requires any of the GPIO pins. The impact of the PoE HAT is likely to be on the available power rather than how the drive connects.

*: SD cards via GPIO and an unfinished IDE driver using the SMI.
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All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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ejolson
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Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:34 pm

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:22 pm
I'm planning a K3S cluster, also co-hosting a Elastic Cluster, maybe some Redis and cassandra also.

If it was just about storage I could remote mount Zinio provisioned storage from my TrueNAS (10TB Free).

My thought pattern atm is leading me to the M.2 enclosure + M.2 (bought separately) accessed via a USB3 interface for now, can always take the M.2 out later and direct mount vi an adapter or something when the PoE+ HAT is not used.

G
I'm currently running a cluster of 12 Pi 4Bs that network boot and mount their root filesystems using iSCSI over the network. With Cassandra or Elasticsearch one is focusing on distributed storage, so it makes sense to attach an SSD to each Pi. I'm not sure what space considerations you have, but a bunch of known-to-work USB to SATA bridges (carefully choose the chipset and firmware) with 2.5" SSDs (choose low power over performance) would likely work.
Last edited by ejolson on Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:41 pm

so bottom line is USB will be the interface...

so the attempt might now be to spend the same amount, and try and re-use down the line as much,

so SSD drives with a SATA to USB3 cable.
or
M.2 in external case with a USB3 cable... what I like here, it might not be faster than the SSD option, it will allow me down the line to reuse the M.2 drives, Uptime.lab (on Instagram) is busy with a nice board that can host a CM4 module, it has a onboard M.2 slot... so going M.2 now might mean I can re-use the storage later.

plan for now is 240GB data storage per node, that amount will be good enough for me for now.

G
ejolson wrote:
georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:22 pm
I'm planning a K3S cluster, also co-hosting a Elastic Cluster, maybe some Redis and cassandra also.

If it was just about storage I could remote mount Zinio provisioned storage from my TrueNAS (10TB Free).

My thought pattern atm is leading me to the M.2 enclosure + M.2 (bought separately) accessed via a USB3 interface for now, can always take the M.2 out later and direct mount vi an adapter or something when the PoE+ HAT is not used.

G
I'm currently running a cluster of 12 Pi 4Bs that network boot and mount their root filesystems using iSCSI over the network. With Cassandra or Elasticsearch one is focusing on distributed storage, so it makes sense to attach an SSD to each Pi. I'm not sure what space considerations you have, but a bunch of known-to-work USB to SATA bridges (carefully choose the chipset and firmware) with 2.5" SSDs (choose low power over performance) would likely work.
240GB SSD = 240GB M.2

With the SSD I will need a cable only with the M.2 I will need a little mounting board and cable, but can potentially be lower profile...

G

ejolson
Posts: 8266
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:02 pm

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:41 pm
so bottom line is USB will be the interface...

so the attempt might now be to spend the same amount, and try and re-use down the line as much,

so SSD drives with a SATA to USB3 cable.
or
M.2 in external case with a USB3 cable... what I like here, it might not be faster than the SSD option, it will allow me down the line to reuse the M.2 drives, Uptime.lab (on Instagram) is busy with a nice board that can host a CM4 module, it has a onboard M.2 slot... so going M.2 now might mean I can re-use the storage later.

plan for now is 240GB data storage per node, that amount will be good enough for me for now.

G
ejolson wrote:
georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:22 pm
I'm planning a K3S cluster, also co-hosting a Elastic Cluster, maybe some Redis and cassandra also.

If it was just about storage I could remote mount Zinio provisioned storage from my TrueNAS (10TB Free).

My thought pattern atm is leading me to the M.2 enclosure + M.2 (bought separately) accessed via a USB3 interface for now, can always take the M.2 out later and direct mount vi an adapter or something when the PoE+ HAT is not used.

G
I'm currently running a cluster of 12 Pi 4Bs that network boot and mount their root filesystems using iSCSI over the network. With Cassandra or Elasticsearch one is focusing on distributed storage, so it makes sense to attach an SSD to each Pi. I'm not sure what space considerations you have, but a bunch of known-to-work USB to SATA bridges (carefully choose the chipset and firmware) with 2.5" SSDs (choose low power over performance) would likely work.
240GB SSD = 240GB M.2

With the SSD I will need a cable only with the M.2 I will need a little mounting board and cable, but can potentially be lower profile...

G
Note the manufacture of branded SSDs and USB bridges are sometimes farmed out in batches based on the lowest bid. Even when that's not the case, devices produced for the consumer market often change specifications without public notice. Therefore, it is important to make sure there are no hidden changes when scaling up a configuration known to work.

If you are planning to use the SSDs in a PC later, it makes sense to buy NVMe drives. However, for NVMe drives one will have to be even more careful with compatibility and power requirements with a Raspberry Pi. There have been so many reports of trouble, many advise sticking with the lowest power 2.5" SATA SSDs you can find. This may be cheaper as well.

georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:30 pm

NVME pushes the price to much, if I was going to buy 1, no problem, but plan is to do 6x, and that 6x the delta is not small to ignore.

thinking in this case a simple Sata to USB cable might see be simplest, Curcial and/or Kingston always win my support.

thanks, advise noted.

G

ejolson
Posts: 8266
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:11 pm

georgelza wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:30 pm
NVME pushes the price to much, if I was going to buy 1, no problem, but plan is to do 6x, and that 6x the delta is not small to ignore.

thinking in this case a simple Sata to USB cable might see be simplest, Curcial and/or Kingston always win my support.

thanks, advise noted.

G
Please post photos back to this thread when you've got everything set up.

I find it fun and others may also like to see how the cluster looks in the end.

Good luck!

georgelza
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: MSata via USB on RPi4B

Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:08 pm

will be month or 2 or 3, but will do.

busy redoing my network, had a old flat 192.168.0.0 based network...

Busy replacing some ageing hw (Dratek 2760 + Unifi USG + TPLink 24port GB Unmanaged) with pfSense on white box + Unifi 24 port PoE Gen 2
converting the LAN to 172.16.x.x, adding 2 vlans, and a 3rd temporary, which will be taking all 192.16.0.0. and making it a plan for now, for the migration,

Next up with then be getting the SSD's, the PoE+ HAT's and finally the RPi4's. (we're only allowed to buy one at a time, and well at the moment there is zero stock in the country).

Will be a 6way K3S cluster, 7th will be Rancher and 8th will be a unallocated what ever (7 and 8 will be repurposed RPi3B's, 1-6 will be RPi4B 8Gb).
All to be fitted into a self printed 2u high mount into a rack.

or well thats the plan...

G

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