skipfire
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Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 12:07 pm

I apologize if I'm bringing up a topic that already came up, but search did not find relevant topics when I searched for Raspberry Pi OS. Which brings me to my concern, searching for Raspbian is a very good keyword search, that really helps new users. "Raspberry Pi OS" is a terrible search term because so many search results for what was Raspbian will come up, and it may even mislead new users into thinking it is the only OS for the Pi. It seems to me that this will cause more confusion, not less. Not to mention the confusion for those new users when they find a relevant article but it mentions Rasbian instead of Raspberry Pi OS.

Am I in the minority thinking this rename is a bad idea?

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 12:16 pm

From what I read it is not a rename at all. They are different operating systems.

Raspbian is the product of a group of people who wanted a Debian for the old 32 bit Pi SoC ARM architecture which Debian did not support.

"Raspberry Pi OS" is made by different group of people, targeted at the 64 bit Pi SoC ARM architecture. Making use of actual Debian package as Debian already supports aarch64.

Is it confusing? Of course, this is Linux world, everyone and his dog makes a Linux distribution for whatever purpose with whatever name.

Is it a terrible name? Can't say I like it much but meh.
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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 12:20 pm

There are some very sensible reasons for the rename documented here: viewtopic.php?p=1668253#p1668466

It's mainly because the 64-bit version of RaspiOS64 is built on a different base to Raspbian (now called RaspiOS32). The process of renaming things is called "progress".
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cjan
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 12:35 pm

NO, in downloads page few hours ago, it call Raspberry Pi OS and its 32bit only.
but it disappear now, must some went wrong.
btw, its 2020-05-27-raspios-buster-armhf.zip

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 12:50 pm

Blow me down you are right. The download page now reads:

"Raspberry Pi OS (previously called Raspbian) is our official operating system for all models of the Raspberry Pi."

The "clarification" plugwash made yesterday is rather confusing on this point. Somewhere, we are told, "The raspbian project still exists and will continue to exist to provide an armv6 hardfloat rebuild of Debian." Except what was "Raspbian" is now "Raspberry Pi OS" on the download page,

viewtopic.php?p=1668253#p1668466

I will continue to use "The Operating System Formally Known As Raspbian".

:)
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NimbUx
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:01 pm

O.P. I'm with you : the "rename" is a terrible choice and confusing too.

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:04 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:20 pm
There are some very sensible reasons for the rename documented here: viewtopic.php?p=1668253#p1668466

It's mainly because the 64-bit version of RaspiOS64 is built on a different base to Raspbian (now called RaspiOS32). The process of renaming things is called "progress".
It is more that change is hard, and totally breaks the internet, where searches turn up really old bits and bobs. This will generate massive confusion for folks that desperately want new and shiney and have no clue about the difference means. Look at all the folks playing with the USB Boot BETA firmware. Posts that start with "I'm totally new to both Pi and Linux and I just mucked with beta firmware" almost never have happy endings. Now we are going to add Rasbian, 64 Bit Beta, Raspberry Pi OS 32 Bit, and Raspberry PI OS 64 Bit to the mix, for a group of folk that can't deal with the differences between Jessie and Buster.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:13 pm

I think you are right. Anyone including "Raspberry Pi OS" in their search terms for whatever problem they have is going to end up with billions of hits for all kind of raspberry pi and different OS related things. Where a unique name like "raspbian" really help to narrow things down a lot. Meanwhile all the stuff they would have found quickly using "raspbian" will be off their radar.

It's a terrible name. Not to mention unimaginative and boring.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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bomblord
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:16 pm

I vastly prefer it and it seems a lot easier for a potential "noob" to find information on the OS for their raspberry pi with a google search.

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dickon
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:18 pm

Meh. Over time it'll become less of an issue.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:21 pm

But that was my point. Such a search will not lead to " the OS for their raspberry pi" it will lead to all the OS that run on the Pi and all kind of other junk. Meanwhile hiding mountains of useful information accumulated around the internet for all the years unfound.

Can't we just call it "Pibian"?

Short, sweet, unique, indicative of what it is, Debian for the Pi.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:27 pm

dickon wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:18 pm
Meh. Over time it'll become less of an issue.
Think of what happens when you want to find information on something with a very common word as it's name. For example you have a problem with a program you are writing in "Go" or "Rust".

Typically people get around this by wising up and adding something to the search "go lang" and "rust lang" in these cases.

So yes, it will become less of an issue as people learn to search for "raspberry pi OS raspbian" and people writing articles about it on the net always include "formerly known as raspbian" somewhere.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:28 pm

This was under discussion internally for months. What we have now is the best that was come up with.

Choosing names for things is difficult. Look at the names of the cars we have have nowadays for excellent examples.
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LTolledo
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm

bad idea based on what standards? (citations required)

hmmm.... does the renaming of the OS affect its performance?
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Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:33 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm
bad idea based on what standards? (citations required)

hmmm.... does the renaming of the OS affect its performance?
The citations are all the links to the posts in this thread. Pointing out reasonably argued concerns about the name. Original works, by the authors here.

Performance may well be severely impacted when people cannot find a fix for whatever problem they are tackling.
Last edited by Heater on Fri May 29, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:33 pm

Edit: deleted duplicate junk.
Last edited by Heater on Fri May 29, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:36 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:28 pm
Look at the names of the cars we have have nowadays for excellent examples.
The Vauxhall Nova is my favourite. 'No va'~='Won't go' in Spanish. Oops.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

trejan
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm

We survived the phase where lots of people called it PIXEL so we'll survive the change to Raspberry Pi OS.

Can people be less aggressive/rude when correcting new posters if they use the wrong name for something? They're likely to be beginners and it doesn't help them.
Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:50 pm
The "clarification" plugwash made yesterday is rather confusing on this point. Somewhere, we are told, "The raspbian project still exists and will continue to exist to provide an armv6 hardfloat rebuild of Debian." Except what was "Raspbian" is now "Raspberry Pi OS" on the download page,

viewtopic.php?p=1668253#p1668466
It does make sense IMO but you need to know how it is built. What everybody has been downloading as "Raspbian" from raspberrypi.org/downloads has been a modified version of Raspbian. Those modified builds are now called Raspberry Pi OS. As plugwash stated in that post, the 32-bit version continues to based on Raspbian but the new 64-bit version is based on Debian.

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm

trejan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm
It does make sense IMO but you need to know how it is built. What everybody has been downloading as "Raspbian" from raspberrypi.org/downloads has been a modified version of Raspbian. Those modified builds are now called Raspberry Pi OS. As plugwash stated in that post, the 32-bit version continues to based on Raspbian but the new 64-bit version is based on Debian.
It makes even less sense to me as people try to explain it more.

So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.

No room for confusion there.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:04 pm

dickon wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:36 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:28 pm
Look at the names of the cars we have have nowadays for excellent examples.
The Vauxhall Nova is my favourite. 'No va'~='Won't go' in Spanish. Oops.
Mitsubishi "Pajero" is even better it's a word (not suitable for a family forum) that means "a big boat carrying oil" but with the "T" swapped for a "W".

I think if we shorten Raspberry Pi OS 32-bit to PIOS32 and Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit to PIOS64 there'll be no confusion and Google searches are going to work just fine.
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:08 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm
So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.
Ultimately they are both derived from Debian.
Unreadable squiggle

Heater
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:19 pm

And humans are derived from morganucodontids along with all other mammals.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:21 pm

trejan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Can people be less aggressive/rude when correcting new posters if they use the wrong name for something? They're likely to be beginners and it doesn't help them.
This. I've already temp banned one *very* long term contributor for this sort of behaviour today, I will have no hesitation banning others.
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jamesh
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:23 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm
trejan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm
It does make sense IMO but you need to know how it is built. What everybody has been downloading as "Raspbian" from raspberrypi.org/downloads has been a modified version of Raspbian. Those modified builds are now called Raspberry Pi OS. As plugwash stated in that post, the 32-bit version continues to based on Raspbian but the new 64-bit version is based on Debian.
It makes even less sense to me as people try to explain it more.

So now we have two operating systems with the same name "Raspberry Pi OS". One is derived from Raspbian and the other is derived from Debian.

No room for confusion there.
Raspberry Pi OS 32bit
Raspberry Pi OS 64bit

The end bits should be the giveaway.

Most questions are unrelated to the bit depth of the OS (we aim that they are functionally equivalent), so just use Raspberry Pi OS in those cases.
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Re: Raspbian rename to Raspberry Pi OS - a bad idea?

Fri May 29, 2020 3:47 pm

Will the x86 version join the party?

The mouthful "Debian with raspberry pi desktop" becomes

Raspberry Pi OS for PC ?
Raspberry Pi OS x86 ?
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