trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:09 am

mob-i-l wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:07 am
But can the VL805 firmware still be updated without the external EEPROM?
Yes but you can't do it separately. The VL805 firmware is now part of the bootcode firmware and gets loaded by the SoC into the VL805 at reset.

NinjaMig21
Posts: 10
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:27 am

ash73 wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:49 pm
Does it run noticeably faster from SSD, compared to a memory card? I'd happily pay more for an internal M.2 drive (or just the port), to have less clutter... but I guess schools care more about cost.

Fantastic product anyhow, hope they sell a bucket load!
Yes, it runs faster. I only have a slow, old SATA SSD, tested at just above 100MB/s read/write, but you can notice the system being much more responsive. I also have to point out that I don't have any really fast SD cards to test it with. I got below 20MB/s on the ones I tested. Some of the fastest ones out there test above 30 with very decent IOPS numbers comparable to my slow SSD, if not higher (IOPS is really the number that tells you how fast the apps open etc).

But I really don't think SSD upgrade is necessary. Even with the stock 16GB card, Pi is perfectly pleasant to use as a desktop.

cleverca22
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:34 am

trejan wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:09 am
mob-i-l wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:07 am
But can the VL805 firmware still be updated without the external EEPROM?
Yes but you can't do it separately. The VL805 firmware is now part of the bootcode firmware and gets loaded by the SoC into the VL805 at reset.
i think start4.elf contains its own duplicate copy of the vl805 firmware as well, the copy in the main eeprom is only used during usb-msd boot

trejan
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:47 am

cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:34 am
i think start4.elf contains its own duplicate copy of the vl805 firmware as well, the copy in the main eeprom is only used during usb-msd boot
Yeah. That would make sense. There is a mailbox to trigger a reload whenever the VL805 is reset.

I did look to see if it was possible to split the standalone VL805 firmware image into the two parts that bootcode.bin wants but it wasn't immediately obvious.

cleverca22
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:02 am

trejan wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:47 am
cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:34 am
i think start4.elf contains its own duplicate copy of the vl805 firmware as well, the copy in the main eeprom is only used during usb-msd boot
Yeah. That would make sense. There is a mailbox to trigger a reload whenever the VL805 is reset.

I did look to see if it was possible to split the standalone VL805 firmware image into the two parts that bootcode.bin wants but it wasn't immediately obvious.
ive figured out that its just an 8051 core, but i still don't see how the parts are split up, there is also compression going on in the eeprom to complicate matters

corsairetc
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:49 pm

How can I use the raspberry button on pi400 keyboard. I like to use as key shortcut for open terminal for example. Is it possible to do that ?

click411
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:32 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:52 pm

I really like but it doesnt have a jack for speakers like pi 4 and pi 3 and that is problem. I can j use blue tooth but sound quality is crap

click411
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:57 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:30 am
LTolledo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:29 am
seem no analog audio port.... me better devise ways of extracting audio via I2S adapters....

don't have it yet but my DIY senses are already "tingling".... :mrgreen:
Yes, not quite sure why there is no analogue audio, but that still leaves HDMI, bluetooth or USB, plus whatever I2S stuff people come up with.
Yes no audo plug is prooblem for me. I still like the unit though, sound is crappy over bluetooth

fruitoftheloom
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:00 pm

click411 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:57 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:30 am
LTolledo wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:29 am
seem no analog audio port.... me better devise ways of extracting audio via I2S adapters....

don't have it yet but my DIY senses are already "tingling".... :mrgreen:
Yes, not quite sure why there is no analogue audio, but that still leaves HDMI, bluetooth or USB, plus whatever I2S stuff people come up with.
Yes no audo plug is prooblem for me. I still like the unit though, sound is crappy over bluetooth

If you can not use Audio over HDMi, buy a USB Sound Card £1.99:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXTERNAL-VIR ... 2807460055
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

jamesh
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:00 pm

click411 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:52 pm
I really like but it doesnt have a jack for speakers like pi 4 and pi 3 and that is problem. I can j use blue tooth but sound quality is crap
BT *ought* to have better sound quality than the analogue jack, it's digital and higher 'resolution'. Or use USB->3.5mm , or use HDMI audio.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

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mahjongg
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:18 pm

Its possible to add analog audio with a small "dongle" (containing just a few resistors and capacitors, and a connector ) in the GPIO port, and a line of text in config.txt to redirect audio PWM to a few GPIO pins.

adafruit has explained how to do it.

https://learn.adafruit.com/adding-basic ... -pwm-audio

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rpiMike
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Location: Cumbria, UK

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:27 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:18 pm
Its possible to add analog audio with a small "dongle" (containing just a few resistors and capacitors, and a connector ) in the GPIO port, and a line of text in config.txt to redirect audio PWM to a few GPIO pins.

adafruit has explained how to do it.
Here's mine:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=290182&p=1757521#p1757521

m4r35n357
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Location: UK

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:19 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:28 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:02 pm
I have no doubt there will be an 8GB model.
I believe RPF are just holding off on releasing one due to the Pi 400 already causing shortages in the supply chain for other Pi models with just the 4GB model.


That's only my thoughts though, I may be completely wrong.
You are. AFAIK, we've never even made a prototype.
The current product is superb.

Please ignore all the "imagineers" who demand features without regard for the extra cost. They will not be satisfied until Windows runs on the 400 (slowly) and the price is nearer £200 (some of us can still remember how netbooks were ruined this way).

jamesh
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:10 pm

m4r35n357 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:19 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:28 pm
Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:02 pm
I have no doubt there will be an 8GB model.
I believe RPF are just holding off on releasing one due to the Pi 400 already causing shortages in the supply chain for other Pi models with just the 4GB model.


That's only my thoughts though, I may be completely wrong.
You are. AFAIK, we've never even made a prototype.
The current product is superb.

Please ignore all the "imagineers" who demand features without regard for the extra cost. They will not be satisfied until Windows runs on the 400 (slowly) and the price is nearer £200 (some of us can still remember how netbooks were ruined this way).
Thanks. We are used to an influx of people telling us where we went wrong every time we release a new product, but this one has been fairly innocuous, just the analogue audio and no 8GB being the main complaints, although our choice of MicroHDMI still gets a bad press. Oh, and the madness of missing out an M.2 slot, despite the fact the HW cannot support it so would be a very expensive option. We do spend some time narrowing down the specs of our devices to hit a particular features vs price point. Seems to have worked for us so far.

So in precis this is the complaint list, so everyone can feel free to not bring these up again (it won't make any difference to whether it happens or not)
  • No analog audio
  • No M.2 slot
  • No 8GB version
  • Different colour scheme
  • Full size HDMI
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

northernmunky
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:21 am

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:19 pm

I have a Pi 400 in my shopping basket but am wondering if they will soon release a Pi 400 with PoE support? Does the use of that BOURNS SM51625L chip suggest it might be coming in a future revision or can be added? I'm told although its there, the Pi400 is not PoE enabled.
If so I'd happily wait for a PoE enabled version to be released.
Anyone know any better?

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27226
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:21 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:10 pm
m4r35n357 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:19 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:28 pm


You are. AFAIK, we've never even made a prototype.
The current product is superb.

Please ignore all the "imagineers" who demand features without regard for the extra cost. They will not be satisfied until Windows runs on the 400 (slowly) and the price is nearer £200 (some of us can still remember how netbooks were ruined this way).
Thanks. We are used to an influx of people telling us where we went wrong every time we release a new product, but this one has been fairly innocuous, just the analogue audio and no 8GB being the main complaints, although our choice of MicroHDMI still gets a bad press. Oh, and the madness of missing out an M.2 slot, despite the fact the HW cannot support it so would be a very expensive option. We do spend some time narrowing down the specs of our devices to hit a particular features vs price point. Seems to have worked for us so far.

So in precis this is the complaint list, so everyone can feel free to not bring these up again (it won't make any difference to whether it happens or not)
  • No analog audio
  • No M.2 slot
  • No 8GB version
  • Different colour scheme
  • Full size HDMI

WoW :D

Though one can replace keyboard with the Standalone Black one ;)
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

richrussell
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:52 am

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:40 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:00 pm
click411 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:52 pm
I really like but it doesnt have a jack for speakers like pi 4 and pi 3 and that is problem. I can j use blue tooth but sound quality is crap
BT *ought* to have better sound quality than the analogue jack, it's digital and higher 'resolution'. Or use USB->3.5mm , or use HDMI audio.
I find it's quite variable depending on the Bluetooth audio device, so possible down to what it negotiates. My Bluetooth headphones sound good on my Pi 4B, but the cheap Bluetooth speaker I've got is very bass heavy and not that clear - yet it is fine when driven by my mobile phone.

However given getting Bluetooth audio to work at all in a fresh install of Raspberry Pi OS can be a bit hit and miss too, I might take back my earlier statement of recommending Pi400 users to use Bluetooth, and suggest a cheap USB audio device instead if they're not using an audio capable HDMI monitor/TV. (It pairs and appears to be working, but there's no audio from applications such as Chromium)

ejolson
Posts: 8639
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:42 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:10 pm
m4r35n357 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:19 pm
jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:28 pm


You are. AFAIK, we've never even made a prototype.
The current product is superb.

Please ignore all the "imagineers" who demand features without regard for the extra cost. They will not be satisfied until Windows runs on the 400 (slowly) and the price is nearer £200 (some of us can still remember how netbooks were ruined this way).
Thanks. We are used to an influx of people telling us where we went wrong every time we release a new product, but this one has been fairly innocuous, just the analogue audio and no 8GB being the main complaints, although our choice of MicroHDMI still gets a bad press. Oh, and the madness of missing out an M.2 slot, despite the fact the HW cannot support it so would be a very expensive option. We do spend some time narrowing down the specs of our devices to hit a particular features vs price point. Seems to have worked for us so far.

So in precis this is the complaint list, so everyone can feel free to not bring these up again (it won't make any difference to whether it happens or not)
  • No analog audio
  • No M.2 slot
  • No 8GB version
  • Different colour scheme
  • Full size HDMI
I think you missed the suggestion for POE. In a school computer-lab setting avoiding all those power adapters would be very attractive. This also opens up the use of the USBC port for data.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27226
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:44 pm

northernmunky wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:19 pm
I have a Pi 400 in my shopping basket but am wondering if they will soon release a Pi 400 with PoE support? Does the use of that BOURNS SM51625L chip suggest it might be coming in a future revision or can be added? I'm told although its there, the Pi400 is not PoE enabled.
If so I'd happily wait for a PoE enabled version to be released.
Anyone know any better?

Raspberry Pi Trading do not have a publicly available Roadmap of future products.


Take a look at the PoE HAT and work out how that could be integrated into the space available when a physically larger board is required. Answers on a postcard to RPT :roll:
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

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bensimmo
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:44 pm
northernmunky wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:19 pm
I have a Pi 400 in my shopping basket but am wondering if they will soon release a Pi 400 with PoE support? Does the use of that BOURNS SM51625L chip suggest it might be coming in a future revision or can be added? I'm told although its there, the Pi400 is not PoE enabled.
If so I'd happily wait for a PoE enabled version to be released.
Anyone know any better?

Raspberry Pi Trading do not have a publicly available Roadmap of future products.


Take a look at the PoE HAT and work out how that could be integrated into the space available when a physically larger board is required. Answers on a postcard to RPT :roll:
Have a look at what the SM51625L 'chip' does.
SM51625EL LAN 10/100/1000 Base-T (PoE++) Transformer
though I think somebody said it was being used for something else to do with Ethernet.

cleverca22
Posts: 4926
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:55 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Have a look at what the SM51625L 'chip' does.
SM51625EL LAN 10/100/1000 Base-T (PoE++) Transformer
though I think somebody said it was being used for something else to do with Ethernet.
last time i checked, that just means the transformer has the center-taps you would put the PoE hat on

but you still need the whole PoE hat, and its dc->dc converter, to drop the 48vdc to 5vdc

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27226
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:59 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:55 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Have a look at what the SM51625L 'chip' does.
SM51625EL LAN 10/100/1000 Base-T (PoE++) Transformer
though I think somebody said it was being used for something else to do with Ethernet.
last time i checked, that just means the transformer has the center-taps you would put the PoE hat on

but you still need the whole PoE hat, and its dc->dc converter, to drop the 48vdc to 5vdc

I was under the impression the CM4 I/O Board uses this SM51625 in conjunction with the PoE HAT ???
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

cleverca22
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:01 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:59 pm
I was under the impression the CM4 I/O Board uses this SM51625 in conjunction with the PoE HAT ???
the trick there, is that the CM4 IO board has an extra 4 pin header, connected to the center-taps on the transformer/magjack, just like the pi4 does

but the pi400 doesnt expose those center-taps, and cant be powered from the gpio header

ejolson
Posts: 8639
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Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:04 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:44 pm
northernmunky wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:19 pm
I have a Pi 400 in my shopping basket but am wondering if they will soon release a Pi 400 with PoE support? Does the use of that BOURNS SM51625L chip suggest it might be coming in a future revision or can be added? I'm told although its there, the Pi400 is not PoE enabled.
If so I'd happily wait for a PoE enabled version to be released.
Anyone know any better?

Raspberry Pi Trading do not have a publicly available Roadmap of future products.


Take a look at the PoE HAT and work out how that could be integrated into the space available when a physically larger board is required. Answers on a postcard to RPT :roll:
If the circuitry is already onboard waiting to be enabled, that might explain why PoE was left off the list that James posted above. He also left off the idea of an official cover for the GPIO. Could that also be in the works?

At any rate, other than a case coloured silver and blue to match the school colours, I think the PoE idea would likely be the most useful feature to add for use in a computer lab here. On the other hand, protective measures to prevent the spread of the epidemic have miserably failed so even the physics, chemistry and engineering labs will close after the American Thanksgiving holiday.

Perhaps the days of teaching a bunch of students how to program in a lab setting will be gone for a long time. Every week I've got a different student with a different Windows PC at home and a different problem. If they all had exactly the same computer preconfigured with the software for online learning, programming and a few other tools, it might go smoother. There might also be more accountability when taking an online exam.

With a Pi 400 it should be possible to reserve the computer specifically for school stuff and then have the installed software centrally administered even though the actual machine is at the student's home. Maybe someone should be focusing on getting the Pi fully up to speed with Zoom.
Last edited by ejolson on Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:27 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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bensimmo
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: The Raspberry Pi 400 thread!

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:04 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:55 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Have a look at what the SM51625L 'chip' does.
SM51625EL LAN 10/100/1000 Base-T (PoE++) Transformer
though I think somebody said it was being used for something else to do with Ethernet.
last time i checked, that just means the transformer has the center-taps you would put the PoE hat on

but you still need the whole PoE hat, and its dc->dc converter, to drop the 48vdc to 5vdc
That'll be why I couldn't see a voltage out the spec then, I think they mentioned used due to the low height Ethernet .. mag ?
You don't need all the and stuff on that poe HAT.

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