mrme01
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:08 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:40 pm
mrme01 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:29 pm
gsh wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:49 am
As we noted previously, adding a repo to your distribution does not download anything to it. It is just a reference to a repo.

So you don't need to remove it.
So my Pi doesn't ping a MS server every time I run apt update with this repo enabled?

Why scan a repo for updates when I don't have any software on that repo installed?
That's fine, it's easier for you to remove it than beginners add it.

Edit.
Although, this needs the desktop?
So add the repository when VSCode (open source / freeware) is selected in the Recommended Software.?
Everyone's happy.

Lite doesn't and shouldn't need it
Desktop adds it when it is installed and used.
Full fat has it there and already installed
?

It is absolutely NOT fine. Why add extra bloat, just for me to discover it, try and work out why an MS owned repo is now being checked for updates that I have zero to do with. There's no announcement, the release notes are available AFTER install. The Github repo for the package is old and contains no mention of the inclusion to check any other repos.

That does not answer my questions. And I think it would be imperative that a new user should learn how to add/edit text files for system configuration. Adding a repo is far from difficult, no matter how it's done.

This was slipped in without notice and now people have noticed, it's being handled poorly. You should expect some backlash when you release patches that do extra, unexpected things like check a repo you have no idea existed, let alone manually added.

A notice that would catch the obvious search terms would have been enough to announce this small, but obviously controversial change has been made.

Do better next time, announce the arbitrary changes to things like the repo lists and explain the unexpected behaviour.

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bensimmo
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:53 pm

bls wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:04 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:57 pm

I was giving a solution, Lite has no desktop, therefore no need to be released with it added.
While it's true that Lite has no desktop by default, many people install Lite and add their desired desktop packages (display manager, session manager, window manager, etc).

I do that, but have it disabled by default on most, but not all, of my systems. No software should assume that Lite doesn't have a desktop because it started out being installed as Lite.
But you are adding software and know how to install programs, your situation doesn't need to be ready on the chance you install VSCode.
I guess you don't get what I was saying.

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bensimmo
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:03 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:57 pm
bls wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:53 pm


Not sure what your point is, but this got added on all My headless Pis running Lite.

For me, this is NOT a big deal. I simply commented out the line in vscode.list and moved on. Life is way too short to get worked up about something like this.
It is not a big deal to me either, it prefer it added.

But other don't.
I was giving a solution, Lite has no desktop, therefore no need to be released with it added.
But read it in context with the rest of the text. It is the three scenarios of the RPi OS Images.
Every difference between lite and full is something else that need to be specifically maintained. I guess it's simply easier to add it to all.
James there would be no difference and nothing for you to maintain differently between them.

You have three install images.
So this is the way I see it. A
Lite - This doesn't have VS Code installed, so no repro added.

Desktop - also doesn't have it installed and not added to repro,
It is added to repro when someone decides to install it via the handy "Recommended Software" program you supply with it, the method we use to install all other RPiOS software that's recommended to be used.

Full Fat Desktop - everything installed, so the repro will be there when it is installed, and that is because you've install VSCode.
(or if that's to hard, leave it to be installed via add remove software, link the instructions to use it)


and subsequently removed the repro when someone removes it via Recommended Software.
I assume it probably needs an update to Recommend Software to add/remove a repro, I don't know.

I see it as a workable solution that should keep the 'backlash' group happy and make it easy for everyone else.

And anyone in between that who must install via the terminal, has the capability to edit a file and add it themselves ;-)

You could then add up to date Node-Red using a similar principle and not leave us stuck with debian apt.

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MichaIng
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:05 pm

There is not even a related commit in the sources, this is completely unacceptable: https://github.com/RPi-Distro/raspberrypi-sys-mods

Really, I got worried that something happened to our sources, saw our users affected and was quite worried until I checked the package download to find it present there as well. Please, when doing such changes, do a commit to the repository and add a changelog so that we know what is going on.
Last edited by MichaIng on Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bls
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:15 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:10 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:03 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:57 pm

It is not a big deal to me either, it prefer it added.

But other don't.
I was giving a solution, Lite has no desktop, therefore no need to be released with it added.
But read it in context with the rest of the text. It is the three scenarios of the RPi OS Images.
Every difference between lite and full is something else that need to be specifically maintained. I guess it's simply easier to add it to all.
James there would be no difference and nothing for you to maintain differently between them.

You have three install images.
So this is the way I see it. A
Lite - This doesn't have VS Code installed, so no repro added.

Desktop - also doesn't have it installed and not added to repro,
It is added to repro when someone decides to install it via the handy "Recommended Software" program you supply with it, the method we use to install all other RPiOS software that's recommended to be used.

Full Fat Desktop - everything installed, so the repro will be there when it is installed, and that is because you've install VSCode.
(or if that's to hard, leave it to be installed via add remove software, link the instructions to use it)


and subsequently removed the repro when someone removes it via Recommended Software.
I assume it probably needs an update to Recommend Software to add/remove a repro, I don't know.

I see it as a workable solution that should keep the 'backlash' group happy and make it easy for everyone else.

And anyone in between that who must install via the terminal, has the capability to edit a file and add it themselves ;-)

You could then add up to date Node-Red using a similar principle and not leave us stuck with debian apt.
As an former developer, the problem that I see with this is that it increases the testing matrix. You do want things to work correctly, right? I still have scars from "I'll just make this one little change, of course it will work...", and then it didn't :?

And, for those mentioning no warning, no notes, etc: I don't know about most people here, and apologies to the RasPiOS team, but I don't read the release notes.

Heresy, I know, right? BUT, I do look at the console output from 'apt upgrade' and saw that the repo was added. One quick edit and resume life.
Pi tools:
Quickly and easily build customized-just-for-you SSDs/SD Cards: https://github.com/gitbls/sdm
Easily run and manage your network's DHCP/DNS servers on a Pi: https://github.com/gitbls/ndm
Easy and secure strongSwan VPN installer/manager: https://github.com/gitbls/pistrong
Lightweight Virtual VNC Config: https://github.com/gitbls/RPiVNCHowTo

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MichaIng
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:27 pm

This is a question of trust. If you already maintain an APT repository with official packages for a paid product, have source code and a changelog, then one would expect it is used to inform about changes. If a change is done without being reflected in neither the changelog nor the source repository, then I am worried that someone hacked the download server for example. And in this case, it is not mentioned in the file what created it (a simple line that it is from Raspberry Pi repository raspberrypi-sys-mods package, at best a word why/what for) and all would be good. But I see this file and have no clue where it is from and start worrying and speculating.

Let's say it is no catastrophe, but well thoughtless and a bit unprofessionally done, not as I would have expected from the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

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InsulationTape
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:39 am

A post I made claiming MS are interested in supporting Linux, whilst their update server was down, was deleted. Yeah, I know I swore too, but that is less rude than MS turning up unannounced ;)

I noticed this repo because I got a 503 error off apt-cacher-ng trying to talk to packages.microsoft.com.

Which package contains the key for that server, too? For the deb-multimedia repos a key has to be installed, so if the MS repo works differently, how does it work?

I guess the rp-sys-mods package might have had the key, and so can't be removed. Would GPG have to be invoked to get rid of the key? And I guess it might be possible to then blacklist the key, too?

I also pointed out that whilst Micros~1 claim to be making it easy for users, actually this user is saying that RPF (or whoever was behind the decision) is making things easier for MS. And that is not a pact to form, as historically MS do not put users first: this MS thing arriving looks like customers being commodified. And the theme back smacks of "tough, decision made", which is what would be expected if users/customers have already been judged to be a tool for leverage in the market.

MS are a twice-convicted monopoly abuser who weaseled out of any kind of serious accountability[1], MS certainly can get their way with a machine with its roots in education. MS are most of the reason school education for ~20 years looks to have been just some Word and Powerpoint, they got good at tricking academics decades ago.

I could be wrong (MS could have changed[2]), but quite frankly every debate will be the same: Mention of EEE and FUD, debates about IP, etc. the standard derailments that go nowhere (slashdot became a terminally boring place). I can't be bothered with this all again, and I found years back it is just best to simply avoid vendors who try to insert themselves between my computers and myself. Please don't try and foist this stuff on your customers.

A meta package could have been set up, surely? apt-get install micros~1.bob (or whatever the product is called, I have so little respect I am not going to use its name) could install the other repo, then install micros~1-bob-bin from that other repo. With the obligatory flaky-tracking, bloated-adware and ram-cpu-waster packages. You know, the ones which for no real reason are dependencies of the only code ever to have been ruled as owned by the SCO Group.

[1] Gates has perhaps had the most successful PR re-invention ever

[2] ROFL

gsh
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:40 am

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback, this won't be changing because it makes the first experience for people who do want to use tools such as VSCode easier.
--
Gordon Hollingworth PhD
Raspberry Pi - Director of Software Engineering

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mahjongg
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Re: raspberrypi-sys-mods package installed vscode repo?

Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:31 pm

InsulationTape wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:39 am
A post I made claiming MS are interested in supporting Linux, whilst their update server was down, was deleted. Yeah, I know I swore too, but that is less rude than MS turning up unannounced ;)
It was one of several such posts, and was deleted as a duplicate

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