LewTheOrganist
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latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:32 am

Hi,

I hope no one minds this question.

Would there be a possible move forward to the debian 11 version to upgrade Raspberry Pi OS and Raspberry Pi Desktop OS versions? if so, this would be a good move forward.

all the best.

Lew
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B.Goode
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:41 am

LewTheOrganist wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:32 am


Would there be a possible move forward to the debian 11 version to upgrade Raspberry Pi OS and Raspberry Pi Desktop OS versions?

In the past history of upgrades in the series Wheezy - Jessie - Stretch - Buster Raspberry Pi have always advised against upgrading from an existing installation, and have never provided a guaranteed supported upgrade path.


The Raspberry Pi community in these forums anticipate releases of RasPiOS and 'Raspberry Pi Desktop for PC and Mac' based on Debian Bullseye imminently. Raspberry Pi themselves have not stated a release date, and are unlikely to do so.


{Edit: typo - data/date}
Last edited by B.Goode on Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

LewTheOrganist
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:44 am

B.Goode wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:41 am
LewTheOrganist wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:32 am


Would there be a possible move forward to the debian 11 version to upgrade Raspberry Pi OS and Raspberry Pi Desktop OS versions?

In the past history of upgrades in the series Wheezy - Jessie - Stretch - Buster Raspberry Pi have always advised against upgrading from an existing installation, and have never provided a guaranteed supported upgrade path.


The Raspberry Pi community in these forums anticipate releases of RasPiOS and 'Raspberry Pi Desktop for PC and Mac' based on Debian Bullseye imminently. Raspberry Pi themselves have not stated a release data, and are unlikely to do so.
Thank you, I really appreciate this. it's just a heads up. I'm not one to go diving in to upgrading OS's for the heck of it. it took 4 months for me to move from the Previous MacOS to Big Sur from launch before I could go ahead.

lew
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m4r35n357
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:28 am

LewTheOrganist wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:44 am

Thank you, I really appreciate this. it's just a heads up. I'm not one to go diving in to upgrading OS's for the heck of it. it took 4 months for me to move from the Previous MacOS to Big Sur from launch before I could go ahead.

lew
Just for information, "official" Debian allows an in-place upgrade from Buster to Bullseye, Here is a link to the recommended procedure:

https://www.debian.org/releases/bullsey ... ng.en.html

Raspberry Pi OS does not offer an in-place upgrade, but the link gives you a good idea of all the issues if you are feeling lucky ;)

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davidcoton
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:09 am

m4r35n357 wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:28 am
Raspberry Pi OS does not offer an in-place upgrade, but the link gives you a good idea of all the issues if you are feeling lucky ;)
Historically, that is half correct -- where the procedure was straightforward (IIRC Jessie to Stretch), it was documented but not recommended or supported. Particular configurations could easily break when trying cross-version upgrades.
I can't remember if the extra hoop (boot partition size change) for Stretch to Buster was documented or not.
As for Buster to Bullseye, until it is announced we just don't know.
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jamesh
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 am

We've been testing Bullseye on Pi for some months, along with newer kernels and lots of DRM/KMS stuff plus the 64bit version. It's nearly there. Going to be a big change, so I suspect an official upgrade process is unlikely. We've always recommended starting with a new SD card for jumps like this.
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LewTheOrganist
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:00 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 am
We've been testing Bullseye on Pi for some months, along with newer kernels and lots of DRM/KMS stuff plus the 64bit version. It's nearly there. Going to be a big change, so I suspect an official upgrade process is unlikely. We've always recommended starting with a new SD card for jumps like this.
Sounds exciting.

Would there be any support for multi-touch touch pads or touch displays please?
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:35 pm

LewTheOrganist wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:00 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:12 am
We've been testing Bullseye on Pi for some months, along with newer kernels and lots of DRM/KMS stuff plus the 64bit version. It's nearly there. Going to be a big change, so I suspect an official upgrade process is unlikely. We've always recommended starting with a new SD card for jumps like this.
Sounds exciting.

Would there be any support for multi-touch touch pads or touch displays please?
Not that I am aware off. There may be changes to the upstream Linux kernel in this area that we are unaware of.
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fceledon
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:03 pm

I can confirm that upgrading by just changing release to bullseye on the app lists is not enough.
System will reboot but will be unusable, looks like no WiFi, the boot process stops as single user. Furthermore, if your root account have no password you will get stuck there.
Will wait for the official upgrade.

Cloudcentric
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:02 pm

fceledon wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:03 pm
I can confirm that upgrading by just changing release to bullseye on the app lists is not enough.
System will reboot but will be unusable, looks like no WiFi, the boot process stops as single user. Furthermore, if your root account have no password you will get stuck there.
Will wait for the official upgrade.


Unofficial Debian Bullseye from a Debian Developer:

https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images
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GlowInTheDark
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm

I seriously, really fail to understand WHY anyone would want to do a in-place upgrade. Of RaspiOS or any other version of Linux...

If you want to play around with latest and greatest, then install a new card and play away.

If you want stability in existing systems, stick with what works.

I've followed this method through the years. Systems that work stay where they are.

New systems get installed with the latest and greatest.
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RonR
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:04 pm

fceledon wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:03 pm
I can confirm that upgrading by just changing release to bullseye on the app lists is not enough.

See: Upgrading Raspberry Pi OS Buster to Bullseye for Testing Purposes

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craigevil
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 pm

GlowInTheDark wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm
I seriously, really fail to understand WHY anyone would want to do a in-place upgrade. Of RaspiOS or any other version of Linux...

If you want to play around with latest and greatest, then install a new card and play away.

If you want stability in existing systems, stick with what works.

I've followed this method through the years. Systems that work stay where they are.

New systems get installed with the latest and greatest.
This is the beauty of Debian , you can always and I mean always keep the system upgraded. And you can upgrade to the next release with no problems as long as you READ the release notes for the next stable.

There should be absolutely no reason you couldn't upgrade to the next release. Or just do as a lot of people do and just use the Debian repos.

Code: Select all

System:    Kernel: 5.10.63-v8+ aarch64 bits: 64 compiler: N/A Desktop: MATE 1.24.1 info: mate-panel, plank wm: marco 1.24.1 
           vt: 7 dm: LightDM 1.26.0 Distro: Raspberry Pi OS base: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid

Code: Select all

lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID:	Debian
Description:	Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid
Release:	buildd-unstable
Codename:	sid
Not keeping a system upgraded is just insane. Are you a clone of Bester on the Debian forums?

rpios/Debian Bullseye repos:

Code: Select all

# Raspberry PI OS Buster repository
deb https://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ buster main

# Raspberry PI OS Bullseye repository
deb https://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ bullseye main

# Bullseye https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/arm64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Security https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/arm64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#security-archive
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian-security bullseye-security main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Updates https://wiki.debian.org/DebianBullseye#FAQ 
# https://wiki.debian.org/StableUpdates All packages from stable-updates will be included in point releases.
deb https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian bullseye-updates main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Backports  https://backports.debian.org/
# Backports are _not_ enabled by default.
# Enable them by uncommenting the following line:
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main contrib non-free
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main contrib non-free

# Bullseye Proposed Updates https://wiki.debian.org/StableProposedUpdates
# Stable-proposed-updates is an apt repository that contains the files that are being prepared for the next Debian/Stable point release.
# deb https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-proposed-updates main contrib non-free 
# deb-src https://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-proposed-updates main contrib non-free
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saud
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:15 pm

Is 64 bit bullseye ready for release soon too?

RonR
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:53 pm

saud wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:15 pm
Is 64 bit bullseye ready for release soon too?

The answer to that question depends upon your definition of 'soon'.

Within a day, a week, a month, a year? Yes, in all likelihood one of those, but nobody's talking.

hydra3333
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:57 am

craigevil wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 pm
There should be absolutely no reason you couldn't upgrade to the next release.
Or just do as a lot of people do and just use the Debian repos.
Not keeping a system upgraded is just insane.
Well, I'd be willing bet your house on there are more people who wait for an official Pi release rather than risk their valuable data/processes on an o/s build from elsewhere with unknown risk elements (eg h/w compatibility, which is likely why the Pi Foundation is taking their time testing before releasing) ;)

It is "good" to keep things up to date, especially in regard to security factors, however supported "LTS versions" of various o/s are out there for a reason :| ... so not so insane if you look at the bigger picture.

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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:17 pm

Everybody seems to forget that once Debian bullseye is ready, that this doesn't mean that Raspberry PI OS is also ready.
Raspberry PI iOS s BASED on Debian, but it is not the same code as raspberry PI OS!

Not only does the source code has to be compiled for another CPU, (ARM instead of x86) but also it runs on a completely different platform than Debian Bullseye.

I mean That a Raspberry PI has a completely different architecture than a PC, for one it doesn't have a BIOS, but boots using its GPU, not its CPU.
Also it needs the GPU for a lot of tasks.
In essence this means that the people that convert Debian Bullseye to raspberry PI bullseye have months of work compiling x86 Bullseye to raspberry PI Bullseye, and also all the new system libraries that Bullseye needs have to be re-compiled.
Lastly with such big changes, the resulting system has to b extensively be tested, to make sure every aspect of it is working.
please give the Raspberry PI OS plenty of time, so they don't need to do a rush-job.

Cloudcentric
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:34 pm

mahjongg wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:17 pm
Everybody seems to forget that once Debian bullseye is ready, that this doesn't mean that Raspberry PI OS is also ready.
Raspberry PI iOS s BASED on Debian, but it is not the same code as raspberry PI OS!

Not only does the source code has to be compiled for another CPU, (ARM instead of x86) but also it runs on a completely different platform than Debian Bullseye.

I mean That a Raspberry PI has a completely different architecture than a PC, for one it doesn't have a BIOS, but boots using its GPU, not its CPU.
Also it needs the GPU for a lot of tasks.
In essence this means that the people that convert Debian Bullseye to raspberry PI bullseye have months of work compiling x86 Bullseye to raspberry PI Bullseye, and also all the new system libraries that Bullseye needs have to be re-compiled.
Lastly with such big changes, the resulting system has to b extensively be tested, to make sure every aspect of it is working.
please give the Raspberry PI OS plenty of time, so they don't need to do a rush-job.


I was under the impression the current supported Raspberry Pi (Raspbian Buster) OS is based of Debian ARMv7 ARMHF but compiled to additionally support ARMv6 :?
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:03 pm

Cloudcentric wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:34 pm
I was under the impression the current supported Raspberry Pi (Raspbian Buster) OS is based of Debian ARMv7 ARMHF but compiled to additionally support ARMv6
The Raspbian part is. It is (mostly) just a simple recompile with different flags and a lot of that is automated.

However the Raspberry Pi specific parts of Raspberry Pi OS are customised programs to take advantage of the Raspberry Pi hardware.

That is the part that is going to take some time as there are a lot of changes to make to source code for both 32 and 64 bit versions, and RPT's team have a lot of work to get through.
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Cloudcentric
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:55 pm

rpdom wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:03 pm
Cloudcentric wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:34 pm
I was under the impression the current supported Raspberry Pi (Raspbian Buster) OS is based of Debian ARMv7 ARMHF but compiled to additionally support ARMv6
The Raspbian part is. It is (mostly) just a simple recompile with different flags and a lot of that is automated.

However the Raspberry Pi specific parts of Raspberry Pi OS are customised programs to take advantage of the Raspberry Pi hardware.

That is the part that is going to take some time as there are a lot of changes to make to source code for both 32 and 64 bit versions, and RPT's team have a lot of work to get through.

Aye but mahjongg mentioned x86 Architecture, though personally do not care when / if it is released, there are alternatives........
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rpdom
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:40 pm

Cloudcentric wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:55 pm
Aye but mahjongg mentioned x86 Architecture, though personally do not care when / if it is released, there are alternatives........
Ah, good point.

I have installed Debian x86-64 on my old laptop to see how that went. Mostly it works.

Upgrading my main laptop would be a much harder job due to all the custom stuff installed on there. A fresh install isn't really an option.
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SonoraTechnical
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:54 pm

Debian 11 (Bullseye) was officially released as a 'stable release' on Aug, 14, 2021. So, it's been a finished known entity for a while. No doubt the Pi OS team has been busy with it.

Personally, with regards to a 64bit version of it, I'd hope it supports all of the hardware of the 3B, 3B+, 4B, Compute4 and 400 from release, as well as boot from eMMC, USB, PCIe, etc.... I'll be patient and wait for the team with respects to all of this... They never disappoint. They never overpromise!

32bit Buster on my 4B/s w/ 4GB of memory has just been so rock solid!! Sets a high water mark for 64bit Bullseye!
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jamesh
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:02 pm

SonoraTechnical wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:54 pm
Debian 11 (Bullseye) was officially released as a 'stable release' on Aug, 14, 2021. So, it's been a finished known entity for a while. No doubt the Pi OS team has been busy with it.
Very.
SonoraTechnical wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:54 pm
Personally, with regards to a 64bit version of it, I'd hope it supports all of the hardware of the 3B, 3B+, 4B, Compute4 and 400 from release, as well as boot from eMMC, USB, PCIe, etc.... I'll be patient and wait for the team with respects to all of this... They never disappoint. They never overpromise!
One of the reasons its taking a while is making sure that all our hardware is supported. A non-trivial task, especially given all the combinations of KMS, 32/64 etc.
SonoraTechnical wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:54 pm
32bit Buster on my 4B/s w/ 4GB of memory has just been so rock solid!! Sets a high water mark for 64bit Bullseye!
It does indeed
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Andresayang
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:01 pm

saud wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:15 pm
Is 64 bit bullseye ready for release soon too?
Well, from Debian site, it is at stable stage (I'm running it on two Rpi4 "AP" servers)

Cloudcentric
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Re: latest debian release 11 "bullseye"

Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:16 am

Andresayang wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:01 pm
saud wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:15 pm
Is 64 bit bullseye ready for release soon too?
Well, from Debian site, it is at stable stage (I'm running it on two Rpi4 "AP" servers)

Debian do not Officially Support the Raspberry Pi, if you are referring to:

https://raspi.debian.net/tested-images

This site is not an official Debian project. While the maintainer (Gunnar Wolf) is a Debian Developer, content herein provided should be considered unofficial.
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