beta-tester
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:40 pm

jojopi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:33 pm
beta-tester wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:22 pm
libc6-dev : Breaks: libgcc-8-dev (< 8.4.0-2~) but 8.3.0-6+rpi1 is to be installed
buster has 8.3.0-6+rpi1 and bullseye should have 8.4.0-7+rpi1.

Did you change all references in sources.list and sources.list.d/raspi.list? Did you run apt update before the upgrade?
yes i did.

i thought it is because i installed something on the used old system that breaks this.
so i made a fresh installation...
i flashed a new sd-card with image 2021-05-07-raspios-buster-armhf.zip made an apt update & apt full-upgrade, rebooted the system, then i renamed buster to bullseye of the two source files and made an apt update ... (the update tells that there are more than 1000 updates available)

even then i get the same error message at apt full-upgrade.
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RonR
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:08 pm

beta-tester wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:22 pm
simply replacing buster by bullseye or adding an additional line for bullseye in
/etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/raspi.list
does not work for me...

when i try to full-upgrade it throws an error:

Code: Select all

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Error!
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

Code: Select all

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libc6-dev : Breaks: libgcc-8-dev (< 8.4.0-2~) but 8.3.0-6+rpi1 is to be installed
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages.

See Upgrading Raspberry Pi OS Buster to Bullseye for Testing Purposes for the resolution.

talker1
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:34 am

beta-tester wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:22 pm
craigevil wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:41 pm
1: deb https://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ buster main
2: deb https://archive.raspberrypi.org/debian/ bullseye main
simply replacing buster by bullseye or adding an additional line for bullseye in
/etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/raspi.list
does not work for me...

when i try to full-upgrade it throws an error:

Code: Select all

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Error!
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

Code: Select all

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libc6-dev : Breaks: libgcc-8-dev (< 8.4.0-2~) but 8.3.0-6+rpi1 is to be installed
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages.
Install gcc-8-base (bullseye has 8.4). I also added libgcc-10-dev (bullseye has gcc 10).

jools72
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:59 am

davidcoton wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:04 pm
From past history, it is unlikely that cross-version upgrades will be supported.

It is possible that upgrading basic systems will just be a matter of changing the apt sources, but it is also possible that *your* system will break.

The normal mantra will continue to update systems within the original version, but from past history RPT will not continue to provide updates, so only the Debian updates will apply.
What about upgrading from the beta version of the arm64 build to bullseye?

jamesh
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:05 pm

This topic is about stable->oldstable, not how to upgrade to Bullseye from Buster. Please start a new thread for that.
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PhilE
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:05 pm

Upgrading from a 64-bit Buster RPiOS to one based on Bullseye would be similarly unrecommended and definitely unsupported - proceed at your own risk.

allpass
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:41 pm

Please just change oldstable back to stable to unbreak stuff for those of us who can't change the configuration in remote installs! :oops:

At least offer some kind of grace period so we can figure out a way to remotely alter the configuration so it's actually possible for machines to continue updating without the user having to go and read a man page and edit something.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:44 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:05 pm
This topic is about stable->oldstable, not how to upgrade to Bullseye from Buster. Please start a new thread for that.
:oops: i'm sorry
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:13 pm

allpass wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:41 pm
Please just change oldstable back to stable to unbreak stuff for those of us who can't change the configuration in remote installs! :oops:

At least offer some kind of grace period so we can figure out a way to remotely alter the configuration so it's actually possible for machines to continue updating without the user having to go and read a man page and edit something.
I'd have to find out why it was changed in the first place to know whether that is actually possible. I have passed this thread up the chain, not sure what the result is yet.
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:13 pm

I'd have to find out why it was changed in the first place to know whether that is actually possible. I have passed this thread up the chain, not sure what the result is yet.
It changed because Buster went to oldstable, Bullseye went to stable and Bookworm became testing. Sid remains unstable.
There's nothing the RPF/RPT(L) folks can do and still remain a fork or DebIan.

The folks complaining need to run sudo apt-get update --allow-releaseinfo-change and live with the fact that software development is a continuous process that needs release to release upgrades.
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:09 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:33 pm
[The folks complaining need to run sudo apt-get update --allow-releaseinfo-change and live with the fact that software development is a continuous process that needs release to release upgrades.
The "folks complaining" have apparently distributed a large number of 'appliances' which are Pi (actually CM3+) based but allow neither local nor remote access to the console, and rely on update scripts which do not allow for Debian version changes (which to the best of my recollection, always result in the need to approve this sort of repo name change). While I have some sympathy with them, and your first suggestion will not help them, your second one is certainly to the point.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:31 pm

allpass wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:41 pm
Please just change oldstable back to stable to unbreak stuff for those of us who can't change the configuration in remote installs! :oops:
It is the upstream Debian and Raspbian repos that have changed suite, nothing to do with Raspberry Pi OS.

You are very likely the only ones with the problem. It is a combination of running apt-get regularly but pinning an old version of the apt package itself, plus that your application considers any error from apt-get update to be fatal, when in fact apt-get upgrade would still work from your repo.

Most people do not even need to acknowledge the change.

allpass
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:25 am

You are very likely the only ones with the problem. It is a combination of running apt-get regularly but pinning an old version of the apt package itself, plus that your application considers any error from apt-get update to be fatal, when in fact apt-get upgrade would still work from your repo.
Simply running

Code: Select all

apt-get update
causes the problem on my machines. Obviously those of us who are using this OS in our hardware should "know more" but honestly after developing my product on Raspbian for a year and being a Linux user for a decade I still didn't know the intricacies of what things could break this. I have never come across any best-practice guide or anything for using a system like Raspbian on a truly embedded device, but that's what the CM3+ appears to be for.

So I am feeling a mixture of self-doubt for not knowing enough about what I was doing, but also some annoyance that there wasn't an obvious way for me to know that this kind of breaking change would occur.

Thanks for all the suggestions... we are now in the process of building a user-friendly bootloader to allow our customers to flash a new disk image. I might start a thread asking for suggestions on the best way to "harden" a system like this so we don't make the same mistake twice.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:58 am

Its just an "N" message ie "Notice" I presume?

I didn't do anything and everything has worked perfectly since (much to my surprise and relief) on RPiOS32 and RPiOS64beta.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:50 am

i don't get the "oldstable" notice message at update anymore. is it changed back to "stable" for raspi OS buster now?

PS.: the last upgrade i remember that i received was a bluez (or something like this) package few days ago.
also with the notice message before, update and upgrade were running successfully without any problems. also their return error codes were normal - success. to me nothing was broken. just a message.
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jojopi
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:43 am

beta-tester wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:50 am
i don't get the "oldstable" notice message at update anymore. is it changed back to "stable" for raspi OS buster now?
When your system accepts a change it updates /var/lib/apt/lists/*_InRelease. It will only notify again if there is a further change.
pidd wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:58 am
Its just an "N" message ie "Notice" I presume?
From apt 1.8.2.3 (April 2021) it is just an "N:".

In older versions, apt update would prompt the user, while apt-get would "E:" until manually acknowledged (but still update from other repos).

The file has to be cryptographically signed in the repository, so it never really made sense to reject it for a Suite change.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:43 am

allpass wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:25 am

Simply running

Code: Select all

apt-get update
causes the problem on my machines.

I have followed the Raspberry Pi documentation about keeping my installation of RasPiOS current and don't recall encountering this issue. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... erry-pi-os

Cloudcentric
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:51 am

B.Goode wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:43 am
allpass wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:25 am

Simply running

Code: Select all

apt-get update
causes the problem on my machines.

I have followed the Raspberry Pi documentation about keeping my installation of RasPiOS current and don't recall encountering this issue. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... erry-pi-os

I had the notice when updating Raspberry Pi OS via command line just after Debian Released Bullseye, just accepted the change and no issues thereafter, though do agree that if one has no access to the Terminal it can be a right pain..
.
.

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:09 am

Post by jojopi » 2021-09-07T08:43:12+02:00

beta-tester wrote: ↑
2021-09-07T07:50:00+02:00
i don't get the "oldstable" notice message at update anymore. is it changed back to "stable" for raspi OS buster now?

When your system accepts a change it updates
ok, maybe i accepted without noticing it, with option

Code: Select all

-y
because of i always update by using:

Code: Select all

sudo apt update -y && sudo apt full-upgrade -y
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:48 am

Note that allpass is using apt-get (as recommended, given that it is scripted, not interactive). Therefore, a change to the apt default is not relevant, unless a parallel change was made in apt-get (maybe this part of the code is common, IDK, but it seems likely the default options are different).

I don't have any good suggestions for recovery, it seems that the Debian label change (which seems routine) has thoroughly got you.
As for a more robust system, perhaps provide two mechanisms, with as few shared components as possible. The backup mechanism (which should not involve apt, apt-get, or the normal repositories) may only need the ability to replace individual files (I think that would rescue you in this case). Ensuring that it is secure is, of course, not trivial.
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 am

There's a very good argument that if you're shipping products, you shouldn't be reliant on third-party components which you have no control over and which may break in interesting and / or entertaining ways. Such as this case.

I would suggest looking into hosting your own apt repositories, cloning the raspbian / PiOS bits you need, and pointing your devices at that repo instead. Then, when a change like this happens, it should be picked up by your own QA machines (running against your own staging servers) and stopped before everything gets pushed out to live.

Debian even supply a package to help setting up repositories like this. I forget the name.
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:57 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:48 am
allpass is using apt-get
1.8.2.3 would be fine. In older versions it does matter which front-end you use.
beta-tester wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:09 am
maybe i accepted without noticing it,
sudo apt update -y
Most likely you were already running the up to date apt, so the change would always have been accepted automatically. However in older versions apt update -y does indeed avoid the question, whereas for apt-get update the -y does not help.

andy220077
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:12 am

Hi there, just chiming in about the above conversation. It sounded like the conclusion was that only people with very specific/bad configurations would encounter this issue, but that is not the case.

I just unboxed and plugged in a new Raspberry Pi 400 and encountered this error immediately after I typed in my WiFi password, when it tried to check for updates. Luckily I'm a professional software dev so I've just fixed the issue, but you have to assume that most people unboxing a raspbi (sp?) for the first time are going to be confused and frustrated by the error.

Is anything being done to address the issue?

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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 pm

Like what? This is a change made by Debian, upstream of Raspberry Pi. I'm not sure what can be done, except to educate people. I think it will go away with the release of bullseye.
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jojopi
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Re: Repo changed from "stable" to "oldstable", what does this mean?

Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:13 pm

andy220077 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:12 am
It sounded like the conclusion was that only people with very specific/bad configurations would encounter this issue,
I just unboxed and plugged in a new Raspberry Pi 400
You must have bought a kit that included a pre-loaded SD card, and the card was written with a 2021-03-04 (or earlier) Raspberry Pi OS image, rather than the current 2021-05-07. If you had booted the card anytime between April and August that would also have avoided the issue, but instead you needed to manually run sudo apt update and accept the change.

Unfortunately it is not easy to go back in time and fix this issue any earlier than Debian did fix it.

Within weeks or months, Raspberry Pi OS is likely to officially adopt bullseye as a base. After that, suppliers still shipping old images will be causing a lot more inconvenience than just having to run one command.

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