JonMarx
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CM4 and USB3.0

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:03 am

We plan to develop a custom board using the CM4 together with a PCI Express to 4-port USB 3.0 host controller/hub IC (exactly as per the Raspberry Pi 4). However, the Via VL805 IC used on the Pi4 seems to be almost impossible to buy through normal channels.

Can anyone suggest alternative devices? The only one we've found so far is the Texas Instruments TUSB7340, but this is marked as "not recommended for new designs".

Rpi4life
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:32 pm

I recommend you use the Texas Instruments TUSB7340 if you cant find anything else. It worked for me with the regular pi4.

JonMarx
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:35 am

Hi, thanks for that. Did you have any problem making the TUSB7340 work with the Pi, e.g. finding the right drivers or any compatibility headaches?

6by9
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:41 pm

Do note from https://www.ti.com/product/TUSB7340
NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS
This product continues to be in production to support existing customers. If available, you will find relevant collateral, software and tools in the product page. This product has no or limited design support from TI.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

JonMarx
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:08 pm

NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS
We'd already spotted that. Are you aware of any alternatives (or a UK distributor for the Via VL805 IC)?

6by9
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:42 pm

JonMarx wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:08 pm
NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS
We'd already spotted that. Are you aware of any alternatives (or a UK distributor for the Via VL805 IC)?
Sorry, I'm mainly a software bod rather than hardware.
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

Steveslevin
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm

Alternative part available from mouser uk

Mfr. Part No.
UPD720201K8-701-BAC-A
Mouser Part No
968-D720201K8701BACA

Renesas µPD720201

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Imperf3kt
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:24 pm

Try getting in touch with Texas Instruments directly? They may be able to suggest an alternative product they develop.
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

Rose tinted glasses are difficult to see through.

plugwash
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:28 pm

Steveslevin wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm
Alternative part available from mouser uk

Mfr. Part No.
UPD720201K8-701-BAC-A
Mouser Part No
968-D720201K8701BACA

Renesas µPD720201
"Factory Special Order: Obtain a quote to verify the current price, lead-time and ordering requirements of the manufacturer. "

Doesn't seem too promising to me :(

trejan
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:35 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Try getting in touch with Texas Instruments directly? They may be able to suggest an alternative product they develop.
There aren't any alternatives from them. TI are getting out of the USB host controller market.
https://e2e.ti.com/support/interface/f/138/t/763833 wrote:TI is continuing to focus on USB products (redrivers, hubs, switches, etc), but we are no longer focusing on the host controller portion of the market. The existing TI host controller portfolio was moved to NRND for several reasons. One is that the devices were designed almost 10 years ago to specifications that have evolved considerably since that time. See section 11.2.1.1 in the TUSB7340 datasheet, the USB 3.0 spec is now on version USB 3.2 and the xHCI specification is now on version 1.1. The second is that we can no longer provide the on-going software / driver support to help customers implement our older xHCI design into every new generation of operating system.
Steveslevin wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm
Renesas µPD720201
The Renesas USB host controllers are also very difficult to source. I suspect they're also getting out of this market as µPD72020x is several years old now and they've not made anything newer.

Schendstok
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:47 am

I don't know if you can actually buy these chips, but this is a fairly complete list of the most recent USB 3.0 capable host controllers from each manufacturer.
Of these the Texas Instruments and Etron chips aren't used much anymore on mainboards or add-on cards (But you can get an old HP 2x2 USB 3.0 PCIe card with the Texas Instruments chip on eBay and Ali Express still sells some cards with Etron chips).
It seems that the older ASM1142 is also still often used, but it is succeeded by the ASM3142 (and that chip fixes a number of problems).

Only the Intel and ASMedia chips are fairly recent, all the others are many years old.
Of the Fresco Logic, Renesas and Via Labs chips are still often used, but there also seem to be multiple revisions over the years and different firmware versions (not entirely sure if you can update these yourself).

You can find people having problems with all of these chips, depending on use case (but it often isn't clear if it is a hardware, firmware of driver problem).
  • People that want to use USB controllers on desktop systems passing the PCIe device to a VM usually avoid the Via Labs chips (don't work with IOMMU enabled in BIOS). But some of the other controllers also have problems (PCIe reset not working)
  • People that want a stable VR setup usually avoid the older ASMedia chips
  • People that want to build a Hackintosh also have compatibility issues with most add-on cards (usually avoiding chips from ASMedia and Via).
Many add-on cards are designed to have additional power supplied through a SATA-power-connector.
In the review of the CM4, Jeff Geerling seems to have problems with some of these add-in cards, and I think that might be because of a power issue (not the chip):
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/ ... e-4-review

JonMarx
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Thanks for all of the responses.

The obvious solution seems to be to use the Via VL805 IC, as used on the Pi 4. But - short of buying the ICs from China via Alibaba or ebay - it seems impossible to get hold of "officially". Even the data sheet is almost impossible to find.

Is anyone aware of a proper UK distributor or source for Via devices?

treefella
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:53 pm

I was able to find VL805 on https://www.jotrin.com/product/parts/VL805
Not sure the legitimacy of the operation but I got a reply from them today and it seems they are able to get me the chip.

I also reached out to VLI with the online form but have not received any reply or confirmation that the communication worked. Perhaps a pi contact could help us get in touch with the organization?

Assuming the chip works for my product it is possible my company could could invest in some kind of MOQ. Alternatively maybe we could get a community group buy together? I assume people will be looking to play with these when the CM4 is in people's hands.

Still unable to find a solid data sheet of vl805 anywhere :( going to try to press Jotrin or VLI for one if i get a reply
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JonMarx
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:45 pm

I eventually found what appears to be a legitimate data sheet for the VL805 posted on an nvidia forum. I probably shouldn't post the file directly, but look at the thread at https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/p ... ard/143085, the data sheet link is in the 5th or 6th post down.

One problem for me, however, is the specified operating temperature range is only 0-70 degrees C. :(

cleverca22
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:55 pm

JonMarx wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:45 pm
I eventually found what appears to be a legitimate data sheet for the VL805 posted on an nvidia forum. I probably shouldn't post the file directly, but look at the thread at URL, the data sheet link is in the 5th or 6th post down.

One problem for me, however, is the specified operating temperature range is only 0-70 degrees C. :(

nice find!, ive looked around for it too, but never found that!

the region the datasheet calls "option bits configuration", is used for both flashing the vl805 eeprom, and for firmware loading without an eeprom

but it has zero useful info on what the vl805 firmware actually does, and how to turn ports on/off, so you will still be plagued by the half-fixed bugs of other vl805 cards

trejan
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:09 pm

JonMarx wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:45 pm
I eventually found what appears to be a legitimate data sheet for the VL805 posted on an nvidia forum.
Nice find. The datasheet doesn't look that useful beyond the pinout though after skimming through it. The documented registers look to be the regular PCI configuration and xHCI registers. You're missing the rest of the design kit like the reference design. The datasheet also doesn't mention anything about the firmware EEPROM programming procedure but I'm not too surprised about that. It is quite simple though as you reprogram the EEPROM directly using the very simple SPI controller in the VL805.
JonMarx wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:45 pm
One problem for me, however, is the specified operating temperature range is only 0-70 degrees C. :(
It is standard commercial range. No idea if they've validated an extended temperature range version.

cleverca22
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:13 pm

trejan wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:09 pm
The datasheet also doesn't mention anything about the firmware EEPROM programming procedure but I'm not too surprised about that. It is quite simple though as you reprogram the EEPROM directly using the very simple SPI controller in the VL805.
yep, and flashrom has some patches to add support for that controller

https://paste.flashrom.org/view.php?id=3267

the above datasheet gives you enough info to pop a vl805 onto a custom board, and then flashrom can be used to flash a clone of the firmware from any vl805 card (normal or pi4)
but if you use a normal pci-e card firmware, you may get the UAS bugs that are fixed on the rpi4
and if you use rpi4 firmware, 2 ports are limited to usb2.0 mode, possibly with the lanes wired weirdly

i talked to a guy in #raspberrypi that flashed the rpi4 vl805 firmare to a normal pci-e card, and 2 of the ports didnt work at all
but since they work on the rpi4, its probably wired up weirdly, and the firmware configures the chip to deal with it

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MikeDB
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:03 pm

treefella wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:53 pm
I was able to find VL805 on https://www.jotrin.com/product/parts/VL805
Not sure the legitimacy of the operation but I got a reply from them today and it seems they are able to get me the chip.
Did you manage to get bare VL805s from them ?
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Find me on our website.

Knochi
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:42 am

Hi,

I'm currently designing an CM4 base board as well and want to integrate USB3.0 directly (without PCIe card).
So i did a search using ocotpart and found distributors for the Intel and Renesas parts.

So the Intel Controllers are available from mouser and avnet
JHL7340 S LMHX - mouser | AVNET
JHL7540 S LMHR - mouser | Avnet

but there are quite costy and maybe a bit over the top when i read through the feature set.

The Renesas Chips are available from several sources but most of them require business accounts and/or high minimum order amounts
uPD720202/1/0: Octopart search

much cheaper and less complex part, plus the whle documentation including a "design kit" with reference schematic and layout is available at the renesas homepage (requires registration).

The chip1stop seem promising (it's an Arrow subsidary), the claim to be limited to "organizations or individuals for business purposes", but that shouldn't be a problem.

What do you think?

Consti10^100
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:02 pm

We are also in the process of designing an CM4 carrier (Open Source), and really would like to have usb 3.0 connectivity.
https://github.com/benjlester/OpenHD-CM4-Carrier-Board

Are the mechanical drawings of the RPI 4 available, e.g. how "stuff is connected there" ?

DavidLux
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:32 pm

We are also in the process of designing a second revision of CM4 carrier which is also Open Source, as you all we would like to have usb 3.0 connectivity. Have anyone come to the solution that works?
Thank you in advance.

https://github.com/luxonis/depthai-hard ... e_Module_4

markus3141
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:37 am

Has anyone got a custom board with a VL805 working so far? Chips are available from AliExpress (yeah not a good source, but for a handful of boards it might be ok), datasheet can be found. I might consider trying.

dp11
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:23 am

I'm told that promate http://www.promate.com.tw/iccomponent/ic_vli.html can supply the VLI805 part.

dav01
Posts: 22
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:30 pm

+1
Great compilation above @Schendstok !

Did anyone try the Intel JHL7540 or the Asmedia parts?
feels like a good option if they can work with the PI kernel that is..

juanma_cab
Posts: 46
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Re: CM4 and USB3.0

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:00 pm

Hi everyone, I´m interested about this thread and i found this:

https://e2e.ti.com/support/interface/f/ ... 0-tusb7340

It seems that TUSB7320 works fine for Linux kernels, but I don´t know if this information helps about Raspberry architecture is ARM.

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