kuteguy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:43 pm

best OS setup

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:59 pm

Hi,

The main reason for getting the Raspberry Pi 4b 4gb RAM was that I have a huge collection of self development videos (anthony robbins, etc). While there are ebook readers and audiobook players that track how much of each book you have finished, etc etc - there is nothing that tracks how much of a 'video book' you have watched. And as a result I never got into exploring my self-development videos.

Someone recommended that I can setup a Plex Media server that can track how much of the videos you have watched, and upon researching I found that I could also run the server on the RPi4! Yay! (rather than keep my laptop running as a server. Rpi4 will be connected to a WD My Passport 2TB HDD (with bitlocker security) with all my video and audio books - tracking how much I have watched is the absolute essential use for the Rpi 4 for me (so if any options better than Plex then please suggest) - I will be watching the media using browser (work laptop), and android phone/tablet. Ideally I also want to be able to remote login to the Rpi4 and be able to run open office, etc on it too, and share out a directory in which I can write, edit, delete files from devices (say from work -> Connect into my Rpi4 at home).

More researching found that RPi4 can also be used to run windows 10, and retro gaming.

Can anyone recommend a setup (multi-boot) that could best support all this on one SD card? (16GB?)

would it just be RetroPie and windows 10 multi-boot; or would it be raspian with installations of retro pie and plex server, and windows 10

Any help on installing windows 10 would be appreciated.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 30180
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: best OS setup

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:04 pm

No, it cannot run Windows 10. *











* Someone has got an illegal copy of Windows on ARM to just about boot, but that is about it. Not optimised, loads of stuff doesn't work etc.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

K Research
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:45 am

Re: best OS setup

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:15 pm

Have you taken a look at Kodi https://kodi.tv/

They have all kinds of Add-ons that might help you?

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 15428
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: best OS setup

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:50 pm

kuteguy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:59 pm
More researching found that RPi4 can also be used to run windows 10, and retro gaming.
Retro gaming, yes. Win 10, no.

Please post a link to where you read that the Pi4B can run Win 10.
Can anyone recommend a setup (multi-boot) that could best support all this on one SD card? (16GB?)
For multi-boot, I'd be inclined to use a 32GB card (or larger, depending on just how many OSes you want to install). To do this, you'd probably want to start with PINN. Alternatively, use multiple 16GB cards, one per OS.
would it just be RetroPie and windows 10 multi-boot; or would it be raspian with installations of retro pie and plex server, and windows 10
Raspbian is now known as Raspberry Pi OS (RPiOS, and variants), but everyone will know what you mean if you reference Raspbian. Retropi can be installed on an RPiOS system, as can--so far as I know--Plex (though I am now less sure, since a quick check with apt-cache search didn't find it).
Any help on installing windows 10 would be appreciated.
Best help anyone can give you on that is: Don't even bother to try.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27226
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: best OS setup

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:11 pm

kuteguy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:59 pm
Hi,

The main reason for getting the Raspberry Pi 4b 4gb RAM was that I have a huge collection of self development videos (anthony robbins, etc). While there are ebook readers and audiobook players that track how much of each book you have finished, etc etc - there is nothing that tracks how much of a 'video book' you have watched. And as a result I never got into exploring my self-development videos.

Someone recommended that I can setup a Plex Media server that can track how much of the videos you have watched, and upon researching I found that I could also run the server on the RPi4! Yay! (rather than keep my laptop running as a server. Rpi4 will be connected to a WD My Passport 2TB HDD (with bitlocker security) with all my video and audio books - tracking how much I have watched is the absolute essential use for the Rpi 4 for me (so if any options better than Plex then please suggest) - I will be watching the media using browser (work laptop), and android phone/tablet. Ideally I also want to be able to remote login to the Rpi4 and be able to run open office, etc on it too, and share out a directory in which I can write, edit, delete files from devices (say from work -> Connect into my Rpi4 at home).

More researching found that RPi4 can also be used to run windows 10, and retro gaming.

Can anyone recommend a setup (multi-boot) that could best support all this on one SD card? (16GB?)

would it just be RetroPie and windows 10 multi-boot; or would it be raspian with installations of retro pie and plex server, and windows 10

Any help on installing windows 10 would be appreciated.

+1 for PiNN installer / chooser:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=142574


Lakka retro-gaming
°LibreElec Kodi media centre with add-ons
*Raspberry Pi Operating System for general computing


°https://kodi.tv/addons


*Raspberry Pi Operating System with Desktop has RealVNC Connect for remote access:

https://www.realvnc.com/en/raspberrypi/
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

kuteguy
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:43 pm

Re: best OS setup

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:55 am

Thanks for the replies -> I will look into the options provided

for info on running Windows 10 - https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/0 ... i-4-and-3/

Sometimes it is just good to have windows 10 there for compatibility reasons. It is not like I am asking for a high performing setup, for gaming, etc. Just the option of having it there because why not.. :-)

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27226
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: best OS setup

Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:09 am

kuteguy wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:55 am
Thanks for the replies -> I will look into the options provided

for info on running Windows 10 - https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/02/0 ... i-4-and-3/

Sometimes it is just good to have windows 10 there for compatibility reasons. It is not like I am asking for a high performing setup, for gaming, etc. Just the option of having it there because why not.. :-)

As already stated the build of Windows 10 ARM is a kludge and has legality implications, if you want to run a 50% functioning OS that is your choice, but if Microsoft issue a take down notice you will be left with an unsupported operating system.
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

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Gavinmc42
Posts: 6309
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: best OS setup

Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:42 am

Sometimes it is just good to have windows 10 there for compatibility reasons
Why, what compatibilities are there that you need, maybe?

Linux has plenty of software that can handle the same file formats or do a similar things.
If you get the source files many will compile and work on Pi's.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

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jahboater
Posts: 7552
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:38 pm
Location: Wonderful West Dorset

Re: best OS setup

Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 am

kuteguy wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:55 am
Sometimes it is just good to have windows 10 there for compatibility reasons. It is not like I am asking for a high performing setup, for gaming, etc. Just the option of having it there because why not.. :-)
Ten years ago (roughly) I built a desktop computer and purchased a Windows license. It would not run for some reason.
(I got my money back for the license fortunately). So I put Linux on the computer instead which worked fine.
In the following years I only found one single app that needed Windows (there was an equivalent for Linux but it was horribly complicated to use), the rest of the time the free stuff in the Debian repositories is fine and often better (far better in the case of free software development tools like GCC).

bls
Posts: 1882
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Location: Seattle, WA

Re: best OS setup

Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm

No Windows 10 on the Pi, as mentioned. This also means...no BitLocker on the Pi. There are other ways to secure your data on the Pi, but BitLocker isn't one of them.
Pi tools:
Quickly and easily build customized-just-for-you SSDs/SD Cards: https://github.com/gitbls/sdm
Easily run and manage your network's DHCP/DNS servers on a Pi: https://github.com/gitbls/ndm
Easy and secure strongSwan VPN installer/manager: https://github.com/gitbls/pistrong
Lightweight Virtual VNC Config: https://github.com/gitbls/RPiVNCHowTo

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Akeo
Posts: 59
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Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:15 am

I guess I'm going to have to jump in on the subject of Windows 10 on the Pi 4, because I am seeing a few ill-informed posts here, and I was hoping some people would know a bit better...

Preamble on SBBR

For a little bit of background, I am one of the developers who contributed and continues to contribute to an SBBR-compliant UEFI firmware for the Rapsberry Pi 3 and 4, for the precise purpose of enabling the running of Windows and other OSes on that platform, since the goal of SBBR is to provide a base level of standardization that OS manufacturers can rely on, to ensure that their OS boots and runs on ARM hardware.

For instance, it seems to be a little known fact that, besides Windows, OSes like FreeBSD, NetBSD, as well as many Linux distributions (e.g. Debian), are perfectly happy to boot, install and run on an SBBR compliant system, without having to go through the cumbersome process of crafting a "special installation" image that targets one specific platform.

If you have an SBBR compliant platform, you can take the latest Debian ISO, extract its content to a USB flash drive, and use that to install the OS in the same manner as you'd do on an x86 PC. And yes, this can actually be achieved, right now, on the Pi 3 and Pi 4 (though, if you want networking on Pi 4, you will need to use the pre-release ISO of Debian 11, since the network driver requires a very recent kernel, and there are a couple of minor caveats that we're still in the process of addressing).

Which brings us nicely to Windows 10. Since SBBR isn't being developed in isolation, but has the support of companies like Microsoft (who, of course, see it as advantageous to be able to rely on a standardized way to boot and run Windows on ARM64, as opposed to having to create custom boot loader after custom boot loader for such and such platform) Windows 10 for ARM64 is pretty much SBBR compliant, which therefore means that, since there exists an SBBR compliant (or at least compliant-enough, we're still working on it) UEFI/ACPI firmware for the Pi 3 and Pi 4, it is possible to take a copy of Windows 10 ARM64 and install it on the Raspberry Pi.

We have actually been documenting that process here, for anyone interested.

A note on legal matters

Now, contrary to what many people seem to assume, it needs to be pointed out that there is nothing illegal when it comes to installing or running Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi.

As long as you obtained your copy of the Windows 10 installation files legally (see below), you will see that there is nothing in the Windows licensing terms preventing you from running it on the hardware of your choosing. For instance, if you have an x86-based fridge, you can most certainly legally install Windows 10 there, if the hardware is suitable. And, since there is no difference between x86 and ARM licensing (the licensing terms for Windows 10 can be found here, where you'll see no mention of ARM specifics), you can very much do the same for any ARM64 platform that Windows 10 is capable of running on.

Especially, please be very mindful that Microsoft is letting any x86 PC user publicly download copies of Windows 10 for installation purposes (from here), which can then be installed and run in test mode (i.e. without the explicit provision of a license key during installation) until such time as the user activates their copy, on any hardware of their choosing. Considering that the whole business model of Microsoft for Windows is of course to enable it to run on as many instances of heterogeneous, unvetted hardware as possible, so that users can then be in a position to purchase a license, it of course makes a lot of sense for Microsoft not to have licensing terms restricting the installation of Windows to devices that have either been "approved" by Microsoft or for which the user already possesses a license key.

The nice thing then is that the same legal terms apply for Windows on ARM64, with the only (non-legal) difference being that Microsoft does not yet provide public ARM64 installation images...

Yet, that last matter still doesn't mean that it is impossible to legally create a Windows 10 installation media for installation of a Raspberry Pi.

The one and only legal issue with doing so is that, only Microsoft, or someone that has entered a licensing agreement with Microsoft, has the rights to redistribute Microsoft binary content.

Therefore, and this is a very important legal point which might very well be the source of all this "Windows 10 on Pi 4 is illegal" confusion, if someone points you to downloading a Windows 10 ARM64 installation image from a site like Google Drive, Mega, or any other file sharing site, and regardless of whether that image contains unmodified Microsoft content, then what they are doing is illegal: Any upload of Microsoft content to a file sharing site is in direct breach of Microsoft's copyright.

Still, this doesn't mean that one cannot get access to Windows 10 ARM64 installation media. It just means that it needs to be recomposed locally, by downloading the various components that constitute a Windows installation image directly from Microsoft's servers (because then, no copyright breach occurs, since the Microsoft binaries are made available by Microsoft themselves).

And there very much exist legal utilities that do just that, and that have been doing so for quite some time. There again, for those who may be tempted to think that downloading bits and pieces of Windows components to recreate an installation image might be illegal, you will find that there's nothing in the licensing terms for said components that prevents you from producing your own installation image out of them. As a matter of fact, the whole reason why Microsoft makes these individual components publicly downloadable is pretty much because a lot of Microsoft corporate customers do rely on them, in order to produce their own up-to-date, tailor-made installation image...

Therefore, as long as you create your installation image locally, from components that are publicly downloadable from Microsoft, you can most certainly create a legal installation image of Windows 10 ARM 64, which you can legally proceed to install on a Raspberry Pi 4, which will work as long as you are using an SBBR compliant UEFI/ACPI firmware for the boot process (and such a firmware very much exists -- as a matter of fact, it's actually an official EDK2 platform).

So what are the caveats then?

Unfortunately, it's not because something is legal, which installing Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4 is, that there aren't a lot of drawbacks. If you do run Windows 10 on the Pi 4 you will find that there are quite a few of them.

The first one is that, since neither Broadcom or Microsoft have targeted Windows to run on the Raspberry Pi, you are going to be missing quite a few OS drivers (which falls entirely outside of the scope of SBBR, since SBBR is for bringing the OS to a state where it can be installed and run -- after that, it's a matter for the hardware/OS manufacturer to provide all the necessary OS drivers). Especially, on board Ethernet and WiFi are NO_GO, at least for the Pi 4 (the Pi 3 did see a Windows ARM64 Ethernet driver, courtesy of Microchip, but since we are now using a PCIe based Genet, a completely new driver is needed). And you can also forget about any video or 3D acceleration, since you get the basic Windows graphics driver only.

The second issue is that, (as far as we can tell) Broadcom have introduced a serious limitation/bug when it comes to DMA accesses, which prevents the xHCI controller from completing any DMA request in the 3 GB to 4 GB range. Obviously, Windows 10 is far from expecting such a limitation from the xHCI controller, and considers that it should be able to access the whole range, with the end result that, when running Windows on the 4 GB or 8 GB models, and since Windows is eager to allocate DMA buffer in the higher memory regions, you must limit the system memory to 3 GB if you want any hope of reliably using the 4 USB type A ports.

But that's not all, another hardware limitation/quirk with regards to the xHCI controller prevents proper 64-bit hardware register access, unless these are enacted as two 32-bit accesses instead of a single 64-bit read/write. For OSes like Linux, this is actually not an issue, since it's always using dual 32-bit to access 64-bit registers (which is actually why it took us a long time to figure that this was an issue), but you proabbly already guessed that Windows happily issues single read/write 64-bit access by default. This means that, unless you manually patch the XHCI Windows driver, you can not use the USB type A ports at all!

Continuing with USB woes, we do have a driver(developed by MCCI) for the DesignWare USB controller that drives the USB-C port. As a matter of fact, this is a driver that was produced for the Raspberry Pi 3 and that happens to be almost suitable for the Pi 4. The problem however is that it is a closed source driver, that was not designed for systems with more than 1 GB of RAM, and therefore, it translates the Windows allocated buffers into the memory range that the controller can access (which maps the 0-1 GB CPU address space to a 3-4 GB device address space) by adding 0xc0000000 to the address. Obviously, if you get a buffer above 1 GB, then this completely breaks down, and thus this prevents any USB-C device from working, unless you limit the system RAM to 1 GB...

All in all, this means that, currently, to run Windows on the Pi 4, you must:
  • Patch a system driver
  • Not use the USB-C port, except for power
  • Limit the total RAM to 3 GB
  • Use a USB adapter if you want any networking
  • Forget about 3d or video acceleration
As such, there's no way Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4 comes even close to anything in terms of "best OS setup", though, if you don't care about the GPU or with being limited to 3 GB RAM, you should find that it runs somewhat decently, especially compared to what was the case for the Pi 3 (where Windows is close to unusable).

In other words, contrary to what has been stated, running Windows 10 on Raspberry Pi 4 is very much:
  • Possible
  • Legal (as long as you create your own installation image)
  • A great way test Windows ARM64 applications or Windows ARM64 in general.
Final words

I kind of expect this post to give rise to controversy, so let me add some more points. At the very least I hope that people who are in doubt of the legality of the whole thing will take some time to review the elements I have pointed to (and, if they still have doubts, get in touch with Microsoft directly).

1. It's not because Windows 10 can run on the Raspberry Pi that you should expect the Raspberry Pi Foundation to allocate resources to support it. I think it should be pretty clear that the Raspberry Pi Foundation has little to no interest when it comes to Windows on Pi, because that's not what they have designed the system to run, and it's absolutely their right to decide not to support an OS at all.

2. If you expect Broadcom or Microsoft to invest resources in a GPU driver, you're in for a long wait, because that would be a major investment, with very little return on benefit for these companies. And without a proper GPU driver, the democratization of cheap Windows ARM64 platform around the Raspberry Pi is very unlikely.

3. The other drivers (Ethernet, Wifi) are a bit more realistic to wait for, but they are certainly not going to happen on their own, and there again, it is unlikely that Microsoft or Broadcom will produce any. So these will have to be a community effort, and they will probably take much longer to materialize than you hope for, if they materialize at all, if most of the folks interested in running Windows 10 on the Pi 4 are simply waiting for them to happen...

4. This whole thing is still very much in progress and (at least for the SBBR UEFI firmware) far from finalized.

5. You may be interested in the following links:
- UEFI firmware downloads at: https://github.com/pftf/RPi4
- Official EDK2 source repository for the above at: https://github.com/tianocore/edk2-platf ... rryPi/RPi4
- More info on the firmware and SBBR at: https://rpi4-uefi.dev/about/
- The (legal) Windows 10 installation guide for the Pi 4: https://rpi4-uefi.dev/alternate-guide-r ... -the-pi-4/
Last edited by Akeo on Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Moonmarch
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:34 am

Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:05 pm

AKEO, that is a very elaborate post. About the same size a sticky topic on the Raspberry Pi forums.

To use multiple operating systems on the Raspberry Pi computer. I would recommend using separate SD cards instead of 1 large SD card. I prefer 128 GB SD cards, these SD cards will cost more money. If you do not intend to store files on the SD card. The Raspberry Pi computer uses the SD card as a storage drive. I would say there is nothing wrong with purchasing 32 GB SD cards. If you download large size files using the Raspberry Pi computer, then transfer the files to external storage. The low amount of storage space on the 32 GB SD card will slow you down. Run the Raspberry Pi Diagnostics tool after installing a operating system on a SD card. You can find the Raspberry Pi Diagnostics tool in the Accessories category, in the Applications Menu.

To install operating systems for the Raspberry Pi computer on SD cards. Installing operating systems to SD cards will require trial, and error. This means installing operating system images over, and over again. If you encounter a serious problem with the operating system or the operating system does not boot. This means install the operating system all over again. There are programs or operating systems that you can install on a installation of Raspberry Pi OS.

I would say be more comfortable with Raspberry Pi OS, and Linux. Instead of using Windows software on a Raspberry Pi computer.

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Akeo
Posts: 59
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Contact: Website

Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:32 pm

I would say be more comfortable with Raspberry Pi OS, and Linux. Instead of using Windows software on a Raspberry Pi computer.

I appreciate the reply, but I think you are missing the point.

Personally, I need Windows on the Raspberry Pi because I am a first and foremost a Windows application developer, and with Windows on ARM64 gaining popularity, I must have the ability to test applications on that platform. That's actually the main reason I became involved in the Raspberry Pi UEFI firmware project, so that I and other developers could get a cheap Windows ARM64 platform to test things on.

Oh, and it's not because someone uses Windows that aren't comfortable with Linux. As a matter of fact, I'm a bit tired of the forced dichotomy that, as soon as someone seems to infer that they primarily uses Windows, the immediate assumption is that they are unfamiliar with Linux. I've been using and developing for Linux ever since I started to install Slackware... back in 1994 (I'll tell you, installing from a pack of 22 floppy disks, only to find that one had errors, was no fun!) and I also have a decisive preference for Free Software, always. For varied reasons, it just so happens that I am primarily a Windows developer and, as such, I must have the ability to run Windows ARM64 applications.

But even outside of my specific case, I'm sure people, who are interested in running Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4, have their own reasons as to why they want to do so, and I don't think telling everyone that they "should be using Linux instead" will really cut it.

Finally, SD is a very poor media to run an OS at decent speed as well as for long term reliability. You are usually much better off using a USB 3.0 flash based device, and even better using a USB 3.0 based SSD. Now, that doesn't mean we should advise everyone not to use SD (you certainly can run Windows 10 off SD if you want, since that's one of the few drivers we have), but you'll usually get a much more responsive systems if you use something else than SD. And this applies to both Linux and Windows.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 15428
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:46 pm

Akeo wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:32 pm
I would say be more comfortable with Raspberry Pi OS, and Linux. Instead of using Windows software on a Raspberry Pi computer.

I appreciate the reply, but I think you are missing the point.

Personally, I need Windows on the Raspberry Pi because I am a first and foremost a Windows application developer, and with Windows on ARM64 gaining popularity, I must have the ability to test applications on that platform. That's actually the main reason I became involved in the Raspberry Pi UEFI firmware project, so that I and other developers could get a cheap Windows ARM64 platform to test things on.

Oh, and it's not because someone uses Windows that aren't comfortable with Linux. As a matter of fact, I'm a bit tired of the forced dichotomy that, as soon as someone seems to infer that they primarily uses Windows, the immediate assumption is that they are unfamiliar with Linux. I've been using and developing for Linux ever since I started to install Slackware... back in 1994 (I'll tell you, installing from a pack of 22 floppy disks, only to find that one had errors, was no fun!) and I also have a decisive preference for Free Software, always. For varied reasons, it just so happens that I am primarily a Windows developer and, as such, I must have the ability to run Windows ARM64 applications.

But even outside of my specific case, I'm sure people, who are interested in running Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4, have their own reasons as to why they want to do so, and I don't think telling everyone that they "should be using Linux instead" will really cut it.

Finally, SD is a very poor media to run an OS at decent speed as well as for long term reliability. You are usually much better off using a USB 3.0 flash based device, and even better using a USB 3.0 based SSD. Now, that doesn't mean we should advise everyone not to use SD (you certainly can run Windows 10 off SD if you want, since that's one of the few drivers we have), but you'll usually get a much more responsive systems if you use something else than SD. And this applies to both Linux and Windows.
You're welcome to try to run Win10 on a Pi, but I think it falls into the traditional remarks about a dog walking on his hind legs.

It is also unlikely that Win10 on a Pi will enjoy much in the way of support on these forums, so I suggest that you make sure there is a support forum to which we can direct people that insist (against all other advice) on running Win10 on a Pi. (I say "all other advice" because if someone needs help, the best--in terms of both quality and quantity--will be for RPiOS as *the* OS supported by the RPF/RPT and the dominant OS on the platform).

As for SD cards...if decent cards are used, RPiOS performs well and they hold up well. Sure, things are faster with a USB 3 attached SSD, but that option came long after Pis were available and is quite recent for the Pi4B. If Win10 performs really poorly when running from an SD card, and the cards wear out quickly, that is the fault of Win10, not the Pi.

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Akeo
Posts: 59
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Contact: Website

Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:15 pm

It is also unlikely that Win10 on a Pi will enjoy much in the way of support on these forums

I never said it should. Please read my earlier post. I couldn't be more explicit there about squelching the expectation that the Pi Foundation should do anything at all to help with Windows 10 support.

This being said, as far as I am concerned, a user forum, such as this one, primarily relies on users sharing a common interest helping one another, so I don't see why there couldn't be a Windows 10 section, in Other OSes, where people who are interested in that topic can help one another, regardless of the level of involvement current forum members want to have with it. Outside of moderation, nobody is forcing any other forum members to participate in anything they don't want to, really.
If Win10 performs really poorly when running from an SD card

I didn't say that. I was very careful of being OS-agnostic when talking about SD performance and reliability, and specifically added a "this applies to both Linux and Windows" to try to bring the point home. As you may be aware, there's a well known issue with Linux and logging when using flash based media, that increases the wear and tear (and yes, I do know that most systems that specifically target flash media do try to apply a workaround for that), so, no, that's not a Windows only matter, though, in all fairness, Windows is most likely more demanding in terms of throughput compared to Linux.

I would therefore appreciate if people didn't start to distort what I said into points that seem to fit a specific agenda. I believe I have been fair in presenting the ability of running Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi, without ever implying that people should start to go out of their way to support it, or that it may come to replace Linux as the OS of choice. If anything, the list of drawbacks from installing Windows 10 on the Pi 4, that I made sure to explicitly go over, should be more than enough to make people think twice about installing it. If you want an OS that "just works" on the Raspberry, then Windows is definitely not for you.

Ultimately, I would think that having more OS choices with regards what one can run on a Pi is overall a good thing and that, if that is the case, nobody should feel threatened by the newly acquired ability of the Pi 4 to run Windows 10, on account that it's certainly not trying to compete with Linux or RPiOS...

bjtheone
Posts: 1586
Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 11:28 pm
Location: The Frozen North (AKA Canada)

Re: best OS setup

Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:27 pm

All good points. Just be aware that many have decided for reasons of their own to not run Windows. I have been Windows free at home for over 20 years and as such have no interest in running a crippled and somewhat broken version of an OS on ARM that I have no interest in running on the correct x86 hardware.

Moonmarch
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:34 am

Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:01 am

The last operating system released by Microsft for the Raspberry Pi computer was Windows 10 Internet of Things. AKEO, why don't you purchase a Windows 10 ARM computer? Actually here is my other idea. I did have to read your posts, because you said I was missing the point. There are X86/X64 single board computers that run Windows 10. Not the ARM version of Windows, no the standard X86/X64 version of Windows 10. Where is my Windows 10 ARM license key? This Windows 10 ARM license key costs $99.99, and I plan to install this copy of Windows 10 on a ARM64 computer. There isn't a version of Windows 10 for ARM computers that you can purchase from a store.

Parts of what you said is true about running Windows on the Raspberry Pi computer. What programs are waiting for you when you decide to install Windows ARM? Windows programs that are programmed for ARM computers. You will see people in the Raspberry Pi forums asking about using certain programs on the Raspberry Pi computer. People are searching for access to Windows programs on Linux operating systems. How about the Windows programs with the Raspberry Pi computer forum category? How about the Other category under Operating System Distributions in the Raspberry Pi forums?

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Akeo
Posts: 59
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:58 am

<sigh>
The last operating system released by Microsft for the Raspberry Pi computer was Windows 10 Internet of Things.

The last operating system released by Microsoft specifically for the Raspberry Pi computer was Windows 10 Internet of Things.
The last operating system released by Microsoft that can legally be installed on the Raspberry Pi computer is Windows 10 2004 ARM64.
AKEO, why don't you purchase a Windows 10 ARM computer?

Because they are way more expensive than a Pi 4, and I only need an Windows 10 ARM64 computer to perform occasional testing of my applications. The advantage of using a Pi 4 is that it's a low power computer (unlike computers that are designed specifically to run Windows 10 ARM64) so I can use it as an easily accessible Linux box when not running Windows (with Linux being and remaining my prime use for it).
There are X86/X64 single board computers that run Windows 10. Not the ARM version of Windows, no the standard X86/X64 version of Windows 10.

Your point being? These are useless for me, when I want to validate that the Windows ARM64 applications I develop work (and, no, QEMU is not a proper replacement for real ARM64 hardware when it comes to running Windows).
Where is my Windows 10 ARM license key? (...) There isn't a version of Windows 10 for ARM computers that you can purchase from a store.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/b ... pwindows10 begs to differ.

As far as I know (from reports I saw of people using them to activate Windows), the keys are not specific to a specific CPU arch. And this actually makes sense: Why would Microsoft prevent the sale of a Windows license on account that it runs on ARM64?

But then again, as long as Test Mode is enough for the occasional validation of my apps, and since $99 is not a cost I can justify if I can avoid it, I am not currently planning to purchase a license, as I am not planning to use Windows as my main OS on Pi anytime soon.
What programs are waiting for you when you decide to install Windows ARM?

The ones I develop so that the growing number of people who are running Windows on ARM64 (not specifically on Pi 4, but on these other ARM64 computers you mention), and that I need to support, can find a native version. That's all I am personally interested in.


I seriously don't understand the hostility towards letting other people who wish to do so install and run Windows. From some of the comments being displayed, it almost sounds like letting other people install Windows if that is their wish is about the same as if someone was threatening to come to your house, and force you to install and only run Windows 10 on your Pi.

I very much understand that some of you have a very strong opinion about running Windows 10 on your Pi. But that doesn't mean that everybody that doesn't share your opinion on the matter should immediately be chastised, even more so as I am not even saying that I personally consider that Windows on the Pi is great, let alone better than Linux. The only reason I decided to post was to dispel the idea being propagated in this thread that one cannot (legally or technically) run Windows 10 on the Pi 4.

NimbUx
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:02 am

Akeo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:58 am
<sigh>
(...)
I very much understand that some of you have a very strong opinion about running Windows 10 on your Pi. But that doesn't mean that everybody that doesn't share your opinion on the matter should immediately be chastised, even more so as I am not even saying that I personally consider that Windows on the Pi is great, let alone better than Linux. The only reason I decided to post was to dispel the idea being propagated in this thread that one cannot (legally or technically) run Windows 10 on the Pi 4.
Pete, I understand you have little precious spare time but IF you could build a (set of?) video demo/presentation(s) of sorts (on your akeo.ie home website maybe, or youtube or similar) showing us all how to get, prepare, install Windows Ten 2004 for ARM on our own PI4, it would be a marvellous response to naysayers as well as a significant asset to the community - methinks !
Edit : I did read your blog posts around this subj, but they mostly target expert developers really, here I'm thinking of something more adapted to the average Pi owner, like myself, who would be interested but not an expert.
Last edited by NimbUx on Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Akeo
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:08 am

Plenty of such videos already exist if you just run a quick search.

So, at this stage, I really don't feel the need to add my own, because it will look more or less the same as the ones that already exist. But thanks for the suggestion.

NimbUx
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:10 am

Akeo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:08 am
Plenty of such videos already exist if you just run a quick search.

So, at this stage, I really don't feel the need to add my own, because it will look more or less the same as the ones that already exist. But thanks for the suggestion.
Thank YOU !

drgeoff
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Running Windows 10 ARM on a RPi is one thing but the overwhelming majority of posters asking about running Windows on a RPi ask because they want to run some x86/64 Windows program.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Akeo
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:57 pm

but the overwhelming majority of posters asking about running Windows on a RPi ask because they want to run some x86/64 Windows program

Windows 10 ARM64 comes with x86 emulation, so that you can run existing x86 32-bit applications. Of course, this is slower than native apps, but if you have a 32-bit x86 Windows application, you should be able to run it on a Raspberry Pi 4 with Windows 10 ARM64. As a matter of fact, this is being used by Microsoft themselves for PowerShell, as they have yet to produce an ARM64 version of it, so they are just running the x86 version by default. Oh and some people have apparently managed to install Steam and run x86 games, though I really wouldn't recommend doing that.

Now, one issue is that Microsoft (so far) only provides a 32-bit emulator for x86 apps, so you can't run a 64-bit x86 app, it has to be a 32-bit version. But it is certainly possible to run x86 Windows applications on Windows 10 ARM64.

drgeoff
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:10 pm

Akeo wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:57 pm
but the overwhelming majority of posters asking about running Windows on a RPi ask because they want to run some x86/64 Windows program

Windows 10 ARM64 comes with x86 emulation, so that you can run existing x86 32-bit applications. Of course, this is slower than native apps, but if you have a 32-bit x86 Windows application, you should be able to run it on a Raspberry Pi 4 with Windows 10 ARM64. As a matter of fact, this is being used by Microsoft themselves for PowerShell, as they have yet to produce an ARM64 version of it, so they are just running the x86 version by default. Oh and some people have apparently managed to install Steam and run x86 games, though I really wouldn't recommend doing that.

Now, one issue is that Microsoft (so far) only provides a 32-bit emulator for x86 apps, so you can't run a 64-bit x86 app, it has to be a 32-bit version. But it is certainly possible to run x86 Windows applications on Windows 10 ARM64.
Emulation may be fine for running 'simple' things like word processors and spreadsheets but what about 'power' apps such as video editing, DAWs, games etc?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Akeo
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Re: best OS setup

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:57 pm

As I made abundantly clear in my first post, there's no 3D or video acceleration, so you can cross video editing, games or even video playing as something you'll be able to do with Windows on the Pi 4, with or without emulation.

It's not because I am trying to dispel the many misconceptions people appear to have about Windows on the Raspberry Pi, such as the wrong assertion that you won't be able to run x86 apps, that I am saying that you're suddenly going to get a full fledged 3D/video editing platform... especially considering that you will be running Windows off what has to be the absolute cheapest ARM computer able to run Windows.

As I have stated earlier: If you want something that "just works" (and that includes the ability to play game or perform video editing), Windows on the Raspberry Pi is simply not for you, and you should instead on a platform (preferably x86 based) that is designed for that purpose.

But if that is not what you are after, then you may very well find some use for Windows on the Raspberry Pi, even with its glaring limitations.

I'm only going to say this once, because it appears that some people seem to wrongly construe my posts that way: I am not trying to champion Windows on the Raspberry Pi, so if you are "irked" by the fact that Windows can most certainly run on the Pi 4, and are looking for elements to make people think twice about wanting to do so, you just have to point to the extensive list of Caveats I provided in my earlier post. At this stage, you'd be a lot better off mentioning that, currently, if you have a 8 GB model, you're going to effectively lose 5 GB of RAM. Or that you're not going to get on-board networking at all and so on. There's really no shortage of items that should incite people to carefully consider on whether Windows on ARM is really for them, even before thinking about 'power' apps or video editing...

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