User avatar
geerlingguy
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:43 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

New Compute Module 4S?

Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:17 pm

Earlier today I saw a tweet about the new S and SE-Series Revolution Pis (industrial DIN rail Raspberry Pi computers):
Happy to announce the #RevolutionPi S and SE variants! Both are based on the @Raspberry_Pi compute module 4S - the latest addition to the compute module family, which I bet even @geerlingguy haven't had the chance to try out 😉

http://ow.ly/nZLg50IwPJE
Following that link, it looks like the new model is using a new and unannounced variant of the Compute Module, the 'Compute Module 4S'?

Image

It looks like a Compute Module 1-3 form factor SO-DIMM, with similar specs for Ethernet, USB, (no PCIe), etc. — but with a BCM2711 instead of the older SoCs.

I don't see the CM4S listed on the official website: https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/#r ... plications

Nor do I see any mention of it anywhere in the forums, at least... I do see a raspberrypi/linux mention here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/4857 (since the HDMI1 (2nd HDMI port) is missing).

My questions:
  1. Is this definitely a 'thing'?
  2. Will it be available for purchase at some point, or is it exclusively manufactured for Revolution Pi?
I know a lot of people with older CM3+ and older compatible boards who would love to upgrade to BCM2711 speeds (even without other exposed functionality) without needing to upgrade their boards and find CM4 modules.
The question is not whether something should be done on a Raspberry Pi, it is whether it can be done on a Raspberry Pi.

trejan
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:28 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:29 pm

geerlingguy wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:17 pm
Nor do I see any mention of it anywhere in the forums, at least...
Not new. Its been known about for a while now.
geerlingguy wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:17 pm
Is this definitely a 'thing'?
Yes. There is a CM3E as well which has a RP3A0 from the Pi Zero 2.

User avatar
geerlingguy
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:43 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:54 pm

Ah, missed that in my searching.

This seems like it would be fairly popular for many people who have CM3-based boards (like the Turing Pi) but would benefit from a much faster SoC and graphics chip on the CM4S—my main question then is whether this new design will be publicly available at all, or only sold through commercial/industrial product lines.

I kinda want to go buy a Revolution Pi, rip the CM4S out of it, and install it in the Turing Pi board to see if it'll work there.
The question is not whether something should be done on a Raspberry Pi, it is whether it can be done on a Raspberry Pi.

User avatar
MikeDB
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:27 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:21 am

Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Look for InPoSe Ltd or Future Horizons on LinkedIn to find me (same avatar photograph)

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 6696
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:38 am

Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
Digital signage is a BIG market for Pi's.

Eben's new press release about chip shortages would tend to indicate the BCM2711 on Pi4/400/CM4 is more available.
Maybe because the digital signage guys are sucking up all the BCM2837s in CM3?

Hmm, RP2040 does HDMI, CM0.5?
What would you call a RP2040 based CM version?
For some digital signage that might be enough?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

aBUGSworstnightmare
Posts: 5143
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:26 am

Think we all have to wait for the official release of new priducts.
Sure, quite interresting if there will be a CM4S for upgrading CM1/3 based solutiions, so hopefully there will be priducts which will have more than 1GB RAM.

Having an RP3A0 based Compute Module (CM3 compatible - mentioned her as CM3E) should bring you to a different price point. And as the form factor allows for accessing both CSI/DSI opens ways for 'zero based' industrial solutions (where UHD graphics will not be needed).

cleverca22
Posts: 6041
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:42 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:38 am
Digital signage is a BIG market for Pi's.
one of my random side-experiments, was a quick demo to see what i could do in the signage territory, software wise

https://github.com/librerpi/lk-overlay/ ... lideshow.c
this code would load a directory full of .tga files, and cycle thru each image

but the critical difference against other signage software, is that its running on the VPU, and gets the 1st image on-screen in under 2 seconds from power-up
without even turning on the arm core

but i could still boot linux on the side, for optional uplink features

main downsides right now, is a lack of scene transition functions (its just a hard swap on vsync), no hdmi output yet, no pi4 support, no real config or UI
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:38 am
Hmm, RP2040 does HDMI, CM0.5?
that could barely do 640x480 hdmi, with a major overclock, i would not expect that resolution to be seen on much signage

but if you instead had a single rp2040 on each module in an LED wall, managing just that tiny square, it might be more feasible
trejan wrote:
Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:29 pm
Yes. There is a CM3E as well which has a RP3A0 from the Pi Zero 2.
ive not seen that!, got a link to where youve seen it?

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 6696
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:09 am

Simple slide show. https://github.com/Gavinmc42/Slideshow
Most of the time taken is reading the images and converting them.
It was just a simple exercise to test the Pi4 image swap speed, more than fast enough.

VGA has higher res on RP2040 but there is no VGA on CM3?
Don't use CM3, composite output?

Anyway, I had no idea CM3 were used in DIN Industrial, and I should have known that.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

ejolson
Posts: 9600
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:56 am

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:21 am
Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
In the recent blog on supply chain
Eben Upton wrote: the 28nm BCM2711 part used on Raspberry Pi 4 and Compute Module 4 has been more readily available than the 40nm parts used on our older products.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/produc ... in-update/

To me creating a scaled back CM4 using fewer parts while simultaneously upgrading the CM3 with a more readily available SOC makes sense during the shortages.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 6696
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:06 am

To me creating a scaled back CM4 using fewer parts while simultaneously upgrading the CM3 with a more readily available SOC makes sense during the shortages.
More die per wafer?
Go back to the Xray pics to figure out the die sizes?
Maybe 28nm wafers are best for current process yield/production runs?
Maybe the packaging is easier/faster too, flipped die verses wire bond.

The BCM2711 SOC volumes are probably much higher, lowing costs?
A bunch of little things that all add up to better availability.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Gianfilippo
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:59 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:18 am

I am glad that this product exists, it helps to consolidate the SODIMM as a standard for computer modules, for example look at the compute modules from Clockwork that can be swapped for a CM3. I appreciate the benefits of the new connector but also the opportunity to consolidate the older one for instances where compatibility is more important.

User avatar
leapofazzam
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:37 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:17 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:38 am
Hmm, RP2040 does HDMI, CM0.5?
What would you call a RP2040 based CM version?
Ah yes, Raspberry Pi CMPico

User avatar
MikeDB
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:27 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 am

ejolson wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:56 am
MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:21 am
Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
In the recent blog on supply chain
Eben Upton wrote: the 28nm BCM2711 part used on Raspberry Pi 4 and Compute Module 4 has been more readily available than the 40nm parts used on our older products.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/produc ... in-update/

To me creating a scaled back CM4 using fewer parts while simultaneously upgrading the CM3 with a more readily available SOC makes sense during the shortages.
I've been trying to arrange a guaranteed delivery of 50 CM4s/month for the next three years for almost a year now. At the major suppliers orders are taken and never fulfilled, or refused to even be taken.

A client of mine wants 2000 Pi4s. Lots of other people in here have said they are after many more thousands of CM4s. So not much sign of the BCM2711 being that readily available yet.
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Look for InPoSe Ltd or Future Horizons on LinkedIn to find me (same avatar photograph)

aBUGSworstnightmare
Posts: 5143
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:38 am

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 am
ejolson wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:56 am
MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:21 am
Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
In the recent blog on supply chain
Eben Upton wrote: the 28nm BCM2711 part used on Raspberry Pi 4 and Compute Module 4 has been more readily available than the 40nm parts used on our older products.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/produc ... in-update/

To me creating a scaled back CM4 using fewer parts while simultaneously upgrading the CM3 with a more readily available SOC makes sense during the shortages.
I've been trying to arrange a guaranteed delivery of 50 CM4s/month for the next three years for almost a year now. At the major suppliers orders are taken and never fulfilled, or refused to even be taken.

A client of mine wants 2000 Pi4s. Lots of other people in here have said they are after many more thousands of CM4s. So not much sign of the BCM2711 being that readily available yet.
Maybe 2k pcs is not a huge order for RPT licensees ... as with an annual demand of 600pcs

incognitum
Posts: 1018
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:34 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:57 am

Gianfilippo wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:18 am
I am glad that this product exists, it helps to consolidate the SODIMM as a standard for computer modules, for example look at the compute modules from Clockwork that can be swapped for a CM3.
Alternative modules also exist with CM4 connector.
More expensive than the original though...

User avatar
rpdom
Posts: 20212
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 5:17 am
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:25 am

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:32 am
ejolson wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:56 am
MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:21 am
Not sure of the point of releasing this when there's a backlog of possibly quarter to half a million CM4s to get through.
In the recent blog on supply chain
Eben Upton wrote: the 28nm BCM2711 part used on Raspberry Pi 4 and Compute Module 4 has been more readily available than the 40nm parts used on our older products.
https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/produc ... in-update/

To me creating a scaled back CM4 using fewer parts while simultaneously upgrading the CM3 with a more readily available SOC makes sense during the shortages.
I've been trying to arrange a guaranteed delivery of 50 CM4s/month for the next three years for almost a year now. At the major suppliers orders are taken and never fulfilled, or refused to even be taken.

A client of mine wants 2000 Pi4s. Lots of other people in here have said they are after many more thousands of CM4s. So not much sign of the BCM2711 being that readily available yet.
But there are people waiting for CM3s facing even longer waiting lists, but by making a BCM2711 version of the CM3 they stand a fairer chance of getting one.
Unreadable squiggle

User avatar
MikeDB
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:27 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:36 am

rpdom wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:25 am
But there are people waiting for CM3s facing even longer waiting lists, but by making a BCM2711 version of the CM3 they stand a fairer chance of getting one.
I can understand that, but shouldn't companies who have ordered CM4s and hence have designs in production get them first ?
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Look for InPoSe Ltd or Future Horizons on LinkedIn to find me (same avatar photograph)

aBUGSworstnightmare
Posts: 5143
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:43 am

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:36 am
rpdom wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:25 am
But there are people waiting for CM3s facing even longer waiting lists, but by making a BCM2711 version of the CM3 they stand a fairer chance of getting one.
I can understand that, but shouldn't companies who have ordered CM4s and hence have designs in production get them first ?
open backlog (not paid yet) or open, pre-paid orders?

In case you've paid for your backlog you should have first priority (of allocated production quantity), in case it's just an existing order (at a random approved reseller) the allocation of SOC is up to the RPT licensees (as RPT is not selling the CMx themself) so they decide what to produce from.
Last edited by aBUGSworstnightmare on Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 6765
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:57 am

MikeDB wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:36 am
rpdom wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:25 am
But there are people waiting for CM3s facing even longer waiting lists, but by making a BCM2711 version of the CM3 they stand a fairer chance of getting one.
I can understand that, but shouldn't companies who have ordered CM4s and hence have designs in production get them first ?
You are assuming that the SOC is the only component that has supply difficulties. Maybe some other components are made from unobtainium, thus simultaneously constraining and complicating the production decisions.
Location: 345th cell on the right of the 210th row of L2 cache

User avatar
MikeDB
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:27 am

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:54 pm

aBUGSworstnightmare wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:43 am
open backlog (not paid yet) or open, pre-paid orders?
RS and Farnell. Neither takes actual payment until they ship since we have trade accounts with both. I would be very pissed off with either of them if we were being shuffled down the queue in some way, but I do not think this is happening.
Always interested in innovative audio startups needing help and investment. Look for InPoSe Ltd or Future Horizons on LinkedIn to find me (same avatar photograph)

andrum99
Posts: 1623
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:21 pm

Eben is actually on record as saying that Raspberry Pi will always produce devices for the original CM form-factor - it was made I believe around the time of the CM3 launch if memory serves. That was most likely before BCM2711 was being thought about.

User avatar
masafumi_ohta
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:07 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:00 am

Folks, please accept apologies, this post was moved in error, now fixed, really sorry for that.
---
Masafumi Ohta
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/japanese-raspberry-pi-users-group

bullen
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Mon May 02, 2022 12:59 pm

I just need to chime in on this. The 2x100-pin SMT connectors was probably the biggest misstake Raspberry has made since the start.

Since then rivalled by the pico and zero 2 for complex reasons too verbose to get into here.

It will delay adoption of a final hardware standard by far more than covid and the war combined (peak oil really).

What we really need is a CM standard over SODIMM for all actors in the space so that we can build passivley coolable devices with swappable CMs.

Think GPIO which is really the most beneficial standard "discovery" raspberry has done so far, even if DPI over GPIO was not adopted by anyone else?

Think long-term and make standards.
https://github.com/tinspin/rupy - A tiny Java async HTTP application server.

cleverca22
Posts: 6041
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Mon May 02, 2022 1:03 pm

bullen wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 12:59 pm
What we really need is a CM standard over SODIMM for all actors in the space so that we can build passivley coolable devices with swappable CMs.
but the CM4 ran into issues there, due to having an extra hdmi, a new pci-e bus, and more gpio available due to the changes with ethernet and sd

something expandable like pcie 1x vs 4x vs 8x vs 16x might do better, but can lead to confusion with users plugging the wrong device into the slot

hippy
Posts: 12309
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: New Compute Module 4S?

Mon May 02, 2022 1:51 pm

bullen wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 12:59 pm
What we really need is a CM standard over SODIMM for all actors in the space so that we can build passivley coolable devices with swappable CMs.
That was addressed in another thread when you suggested that - viewtopic.php?p=1995542#p1995542

The problem is it's impossible to create a single 'universal and forever' standard. The CM3 was a self-defining de-facto standard, still is, but wasn't suitable for when the CM4 came along. The CM4 has now been made to fit the CM3 standard via the CM4S offering but that has meant losing access to some features a CM4 has.

People won't ever agree which is best, a CM4 or a CM4S, because it depends whether they want access to what the CM4 provides for beyond a CM3 or drop-in replacement compatibility with a CM3.

Return to “Compute Module”