Windows on ARM

[pidd]

You are obviously unaware of history, where manufacturers were literally forced to sell PCs with Windows, to the exclusion of all other options. Thus denying consumers a choice.

I don't believe that was ever the case, no manufacturer was forced to supply Windows with their PC's and many didn't, however Microsoft had a pricing model that favoured sole OS. Sole supplier discount is common practice in many industries.

Microsoft's wings were clipped because they had more than 25% market share which is classed as a monopoly (depending on jurisdiction) so had restrictions put on them. Without a 25% market share it is highly unlikely their practices would have been declared as anti-competitive.

In reality it greatly benefited the consumer, the OEMs were paying only a fraction of a retail Windows licence and that saving was passed on to consumers, most consumers wanted a Windows licence, those that didn't could still obtain PC's from other manufacturers which were usually more suited to non-Windows OS's anyway.

I believe much of the animosity from Governments towards Microsoft was because Microsoft refused to issue Government-wide licenses. Again that is not an uncommon practice in other industries and in fact the Governments were being extremely two-faced by enhancing a monopoly that they were also restricting to the non-Government market.

[MikeDB]

I believe much of the animosity from Governments towards Microsoft was because Microsoft refused to issue Government-wide licenses. Again that is not an uncommon practice in other industries and in fact the Governments were being extremely two-faced by enhancing a monopoly that they were also restricting to the non-Government market.

In exchange for dropping the fines, the Commission offered to reach agreement with Microsoft for a fixed price per annum Europe wide licence for all EU governments, public services and schools, in exchange for which everything would exclusively use Microsoft. Bill Gates was in favour of it, but other MS executives felt they were giving their star product away.

So in the end they decided to pay the fines, for which they were additionally fined again for being late payers, but still had to give all the Windows source code to the Commission for experts to check through, though I'm sure that copy is now locked away and well out of date.

[Anonymous]

I am curious about this difference between ARM and x86: to my mind, simplicity of instruction decode has a direct benefit in terms of lower latency and die area, which, even on a big cpu with large caches etc would provide some benefit.

Nowadays the differences are less than you'd think. Look at the ARMv8.2 instruction set and it's certainly not 'Reduced'. And Intel has slowly deprecated most integer instructions that won't run in a single clock cycle as it makes the pipeline too complicated. Divide, floating point and vector operations are split off into a separate pipeline at the appropriate time so that they don't clog things up.

One main difference between Intel and ARM is Intel use microcode ROMs to decode the instructions into micro-ops, whereas ARM use gates. This makes ARM slightly more power efficient, but Intel have space to add new (or fix old) instructions using a single mask change.

If you look at server chips - Intel Xeon, AMD Epyc and the ARM based Ampere (and others), get through all the marketing hype and you find they deliver quite similar performance per Watt for the same process. In fact most energy is used moving data around the chip and into/outof memory, not actually doing calculations. Hence the Next Big Thing (which it has been for at least 20 years ) is in-memory processing to reduce this waste of power.

Thanks - that’s pretty consistent with the strategy used for a CPU relaunch where I once worked. It didn’t lead to successful ARM products, but the x86 products are doing fine.

Deeming windows “legacy technology” (or, alternatively, “relevant”) based on ARM support assumes x86 is at the end of life. A massive investment in something called IA-64, and an upstart introducing something now called x86-64, makes me think anything can happen - a sudden transition to, say, RISC-V is not out of the question. A similar death for a “GPU killer” architecture, one that worried a lot of folks I knew also favors unpredictability. I believed it might succeed with extremely aggressive pricing, but was otherwise just a bad idea. I was right, but the dice do occasionally come up in my favor.

[pidd]

I believe much of the animosity from Governments towards Microsoft was because Microsoft refused to issue Government-wide licenses. Again that is not an uncommon practice in other industries and in fact the Governments were being extremely two-faced by enhancing a monopoly that they were also restricting to the non-Government market.

In exchange for dropping the fines, the Commission offered to reach agreement with Microsoft for a fixed price per annum Europe wide licence for all EU governments, public services and schools, in exchange for which everything would exclusively use Microsoft. Bill Gates was in favour of it, but other MS executives felt they were giving their star product away.

So in the end they decided to pay the fines, for which they were additionally fined again for being late payers, but still had to give all the Windows source code to the Commission for experts to check through, though I'm sure that copy is now locked away and well out of date.

Thanks for the fill in, I knew the outline but I didn't know the outcome.

[MikeDB]

Thanks for the fill in, I knew the outline but I didn't know the outcome.

Several years later, after Neelie Kroes retired, someone started pushing for the Commission to promote open source. It gained some traction but then hit the buffers as internally the Commission is wedded to Powerpoint presentations more than reports, and applications for Horizon R&D grants have to be in Microsoft Word .docx format with markups enabled, plus of course all the major commercial applicants such as ASML and most of the top universities standardised on Windows decades ago. Top research institute Imec was a notable exception with a fair percentage of their staff using Macs but with MS Office software.

However the Commission is having another go with OSPO and the JoinUp programme, but conversely the intention that all software has to be CE marked to be used within all the countries in the EU at sometime in the future is creating lots of uncertainties.

[Gavinmc42]

Of course the 68000 architecture is much better than x86 and the now CISC ARM CPU's.
Seems to be alive sort of, I was interested until I saw the price
http://apollo-computer.com/apollo68080.php
Well Amiga fans always seemed to have more money.

How good is the 68080 CPU?
The 68080 CPU, also known as the "Apollo CPU," is a modernized version of the Motorola 68000 series CPU, designed for use in Amiga computers. It was developed by Apollo Accelerators and offers significantly improved performance over the original Motorola 68000 CPU.

The Apollo CPU has a clock speed of up to 100 MHz, which is much higher than the original 7.14 MHz clock speed of the 68000 CPU. It also includes features such as an improved instruction set, a larger register file, and a deeper pipeline, which further enhances its performance.

In terms of performance, the 68080 CPU offers a significant improvement over the original 68000 CPU and can provide a noticeable boost in performance for Amiga computers. However, its performance level and capabilities may not be comparable to the modern CPUs used in today's computers

Committee and EU committees in particular need to use AI more for decision making.
Using CPU's and OSes with potential exploits just means they are making it easier for certain types to spy on them.

Why do Intel CPU run Minix inside the CPU?
Intel CPUs do not run Minix inside the CPU itself. However, there is a widely circulated misconception that Intel CPUs include a "backdoor" that runs the Minix operating system (OS) inside the CPU. This misconception stems from a misunderstanding of a component called the Intel Management Engine (ME), which is present in some Intel CPUs.

The Intel ME is a co-processor that is separate from the main CPU and has its own firmware, which includes a very small version of the Minix operating system. The purpose of the Intel ME is to provide a platform for system administrators to remotely manage and monitor the computer, even if the main operating system is not running or is in a compromised state.

While the presence of the Intel ME has raised concerns about security and privacy, it is not accurate to say that Intel CPUs "run Minix inside the CPU." The Minix OS runs on a separate processor, which is only used for management and monitoring purposes, and is not involved in the actual computation performed by the CPU.

Well I am glad that has now been fact checked by Chat GPT.
Still won't be using the latest Intel chips, this Pi400 replaced the Linux Mint Celeron Core Duo PC

Kind of curious that CPUs now have build in "Managers" that can report remotely.
Starting to feel sorry for these CPU's now, when they are sick the "manager" will know and call the "Doctor" to fix them.

Will that very small Minix run on Pico?
My last Minix machine was only a 16MHz MC68000.

[Anonymous]

I programmed a little bit on Apollo computers 35 years ago. They ran Unix and had some amount of graphics acceleration, but didn’t compete with the SGIs at the time.I thought they were long gone…

[Gavinmc42]

I thought they were long gone…

Nothing is gone as long as Github is around, but that is another story
Not sure what will happen when those who cut their teeth chewing on CPU cycles pass on.

Lots of those original Windows coders have retired to Dave's Garage etc.
Are they throwing the Windows source at a version of ChatGPT so current/future coders can find stuff that needs fixing?
Is MS using AI to help Code Windows now?

I think I have found a use for ChatGPT, it is not a bad search engine

Is Microsoft using AI to help code Windows Operating System?
Yes, Microsoft is using AI to help develop and improve the Windows operating system. In recent years, Microsoft has invested heavily in AI research and development, and has integrated AI technologies into many aspects of its products and services, including Windows.

One example of AI being used in the development of Windows is Microsoft's use of machine learning to automatically find and fix software bugs. Microsoft has developed a system called "Project Springfield," which uses AI to identify potential bugs and vulnerabilities in Windows code. The system analyzes large amounts of code to find patterns and generate test cases that can help identify bugs that may have gone unnoticed through traditional testing methods.

Microsoft has also integrated AI into its development tools, such as Visual Studio, to help developers write better code. For example, Visual Studio includes a feature called "IntelliCode" that uses AI to suggest code completions and other improvements based on patterns learned from other developers' code.

Additionally, Microsoft has used AI to improve the performance of Windows. For example, Windows 10 includes a feature called "Adaptive Performance," which uses machine learning to optimize the performance of the operating system based on the specific hardware and software configuration of the device it is running on.

Overall, AI is playing an increasingly important role in the development and improvement of the Windows operating system, as well as many other Microsoft products and services.

Springfield want to bet MS call their AI Homer?
Or is it Mr Burns?

Windows and Visual Studio has AI
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that".
Now I know why Dave retired
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARJ8cAGm6JE
Hey are those screen lights on his face showing the letters IBM?
They would be backwards on the screen.

[ejolson]

The only thing I will say about Windows ARM is that it will NOT run on a raspberry PI (for various reasons already discussed in this thread) and so it will not be supported, meaning there will be no "windows ARM" section on this forum.

Thanks for the reply. That's my take on the current situation as well: The ARM version of Windows 11 does not boot on a Pi 4B due to it making use of newer instructions that are not implemented on the Cortex-A72 cores.

[ejolson]

I programmed a little bit on Apollo computers 35 years ago. They ran Unix and had some amount of graphics acceleration, but didn’t compete with the SGIs at the time.I thought they were long gone…

I think the Apollo 68080 referred to by ChatGPT is completely independent of the 1984 company Apollo Computers that made scientific workstations.

I recall trying one on loan in the 80's and not being very impressed. Indeed SGI was more impressive and I think where much of the 3D graphics that we have now came from.

On the other hand, the Pascal source to the Unix-like Aegis operating system on the Apollo would have been a good thing to preserve for history. According to the canine coder, only recently languages like Rust and FidoBasic have allowed people to create operating systems with similar performance, memory safety and network transparency.

[bls]

I recall trying one on loan in the 80's and not being very impressed. Indeed SGI was more impressive and I think where much of the 3D graphics that we have now came from.

I had a few minutes look at it thanks to some friends who worked there. Definitely agree with you on both Apollo and SGI.

[MikeDB]

I think the Apollo 68080 referred to by ChatGPT is completely independent of the 1984 company Apollo Computers that made scientific workstations.

I recall trying one on loan in the 80's and not being very impressed. Indeed SGI was more impressive and I think where much of the 3D graphics that we have now came from.

One of the main uses of the 1980s Apollo Computers was to run the Mentor Graphics software that was almost essential for digital IC design in those days. Although 2D graphics were needed, it didn't need the performance of SGI which saved cost.

Then Cadence came along using Sun Workstations and they took over as leaders in that market, before a startup called Synopsys turned the founder's university project into a logic synthesiser product that did away for the need for schematics altogether so the need was more for text based windows rather than detailed coloured graphics. Sun workstations remained the default for many years before Intel eventually overtook them on performance.

But all three software companies still fight it out in the IC design arena, buying up smaller companies regularly to maintain their lead.

[geev03]

.....
Bing 'AI image creation' on ARM Windows on rPi-400

Code: Select all

Draw a single board computer with flashing lights in a lab

[Anonymous]

Any reason this says it’s Windows for x86_64? Running on the Pi through emulation?

[ejolson]

Any reason this says it’s Windows for x86_64? Running on the Pi through emulation?

It would be interesting to compare the speed of the x86 emulator in Windows to QEMU and Box86/64.

https://box86.org/

I suspect QEMU is much slower, but Box uses some JIT techniques and might be more competitive.

Unfortunately the tests would have to be using an older development version of Windows 11 if performed on the Pi and might not reflect the performance of the current Windows x86 emulation.

[Anonymous]

Any reason this says it’s Windows for x86_64? Running on the Pi through emulation?

It would be interesting to compare the speed of the x86 emulator in Windows to QEMU and Box86/64.

https://box86.org/

I suspect QEMU is much slower, but Box uses some JIT techniques and might be more competitive.

Unfortunately the tests would have to be using an older development version of Windows 11 if performed on the Pi and might not reflect the performance of the current Windows x86 emulation.

If I get you, you’re saying that Windows for ARM has an x86 emulator, provided by MS, to run software that is only available for the x86 architecture, and you’re curious about comparing the performance to some open source x86 emulators?

I was just curious if there’s a reason, in this picture, it says Windows for x86-64. Is it an ARM version of windows or perhaps a really robust x86-64 “PC” emulator? Or does neofetch simply not really “understand” that it’s windows for ARM, and prints out the x86-64 incorrectly? Or, is it not AI imagery on a Pi running Windows but AI imagery of a Pi running windows, and Bing’s image AI overlooked my little nitpick? or…?

[geev03]

Any reason this says it’s Windows for x86_64? Running on the Pi through emulation?

Yes and No.
It is an activated Windows 11 Pro ARM on rPi-400. It has very good x86_64 emulation capability allowing me to run PortableApps, https://portableapps.com/ , on Raspberry Pi.

Trying to run WSL will, however, crash the system and make it unbootable!

[Anonymous]

I’m gonna guess that version of neofetch detects Windows 11 and a 64 bit OS, and then just assumes it’s x86_64. Props to CygWin; it narrowed the gap between Windows and Unix for many folks over the years.

[geev03]

.Bing AI "Image Create'' on ARM Windows 11
"create an equirectangular 360 degree picture of Trafalgar Square in London, https://www.bing.com/images/create/crea ... de=overlay "
(i) Resized the image to 400% its width and 200% its height.
(ii) Injected the relevant EXIF tags to the modified jpg file.

Code: Select all

"create an equirectangular 360 degree picture of Trafalgar Square in London

[Gavinmc42]

Bing has AI and runs on Pi's?

[geev03]

Bing has AI and runs on Pi's?

https://www.bing.com/images/create/ "runs" on Phones, tablets, rPi-400 , Windows boxes/laptops etc. , the action takes place elsewhere
Even if you ask for equirectangular picture,so far, the output is "1024x1024 jpg"..

[thagrol]

Bing has AI and runs on Pi's?

https://www.bing.com/images/create/ "runs" on Phones, tablets, rPi-400 , Windows boxes/laptops etc. , the action takes place elsewhere
Even if you ask for equirectangular picture,so far, the output is "1024x1024 jpg"..

So how is that relevant to this thread about running windows on Pi?

[geev03]

Bing has AI and runs on Pi's?

https://www.bing.com/images/create/ "runs" on Phones, tablets, rPi-400 , Windows boxes/laptops etc. , the action takes place elsewhere
Even if you ask for equirectangular picture,so far, the output is "1024x1024 jpg"..

So how is that relevant to this thread about running windows on Pi?

Just to show that running Windows on Pi is useful as can be seen on Windows 11 Pro ARM screen shots . Also to support the following ShellGPT out put from a rPi3B
-------------------------------------------
[ ubu@pi3gv:~$ sgpt "suggest reasons for running Windows 11 ARM on a Raspberry Pi-400SBC"
1. Lower Power Consumption: The Raspberry Pi-400SBC is a low-power device, and running Windows 11 ARM on it will ensure minimal power consumption, which is ideal for energy-efficient computing.

2. Lightweight Operating System: Windows 11 ARM is a streamlined version of Windows that is designed to run on ARM-based processors, making it an ideal operating system for the Raspberry Pi-400SBC, which also runs on an ARM-based processor.

3. More software compatibility: Windows has a vast range of software applications that are not available for Linux, the default operating system for Raspberry Pi. By installing Windows 11 ARM, users can have access to a more comprehensive range of applications that are compatible with Windows.

4. Better Hardware Support: Running Windows 11 ARM on a Raspberry Pi-400SBC will enable users to take full advantage of hardware capabilities and performance that are not possible with Linux.

5. Improved User Experience: Windows 11 ARM has a sleek and user-friendly interface, which will provide an improved user experience for users who are accustomed to using Windows but prefer the affordability and compactness of Raspberry Pi.

6. Better Security: Windows 11 ARM is designed with security features that will ensure better protection against malware and other security threats, making it ideal for sensitive computing tasks." ]

[ejolson]

Bing has AI and runs on Pi's?

https://www.bing.com/images/create/ "runs" on Phones, tablets, rPi-400 , Windows boxes/laptops etc. , the action takes place elsewhere
Even if you ask for equirectangular picture,so far, the output is "1024x1024 jpg"..

So how is that relevant to this thread about running windows on Pi?

The client is a Pi 400 running Microsoft Windows 11. So it seems relevant.

My understanding is geev03 claims to be running a licensed Windows 11.

It is an activated Windows 11 Pro ARM on rPi-400.

Does this mean the ARMv8 versus v8.1 instruction set differences that prevent recent developer versions from running isn't a problem with the official Windows 11 ARM release?

Will updates load v8 incompatible code in the future and break things?

What's a license cost for the production version of Windows 11 Pro on ARM?

[ejolson]

[ ubu@pi3gv:~$ sgpt "suggest reasons for running Windows 11 ARM on a Raspberry Pi-400SBC"

[text omitted]

6. Better Security: Windows 11 ARM is designed with security features that will ensure better protection against malware and other security threats, making it ideal for sensitive computing tasks." ]

I decided to ask ChatGPT some questions about Windows 11 support for the different levels of ARM instructions sets to see if there were any more hallucinations.

Does Windows 11 Pro ARM require ARMv8.1 instruction set?

Yes, Windows 11 Pro ARM does require the ARMv8.1 instruction set. This is because Windows 11 Pro ARM is designed to run on devices with ARM processors that support this instruction set, which includes the Qualcomm Snapdragon 7c and 8cx processors. The ARMv8.1 instruction set provides certain features and optimizations that are required for running Windows 11 on ARM-based devices. If the processor does not support ARMv8.1, it may not be able to run Windows 11 Pro ARM.

Does Windows 11 Pro ARM require ARMv8 instruction set?

Yes, Windows 11 Pro ARM does require the ARMv8 instruction set. In fact, ARMv8 is the minimum instruction set required for running Windows 11 on ARM-based devices. This instruction set provides certain features and optimizations that are necessary for running Windows 11, such as 64-bit support and virtualization. If the processor does not support ARMv8, it may not be able to run Windows 11 Pro ARM. However, most modern ARM processors support the ARMv8 instruction set, so this should not be a concern for most users.

Does Windows 11 Pro ARM require ARMv8.2 instruction set?

No, Windows 11 Pro ARM does not require the ARMv8.2 instruction set. While some ARM processors support the ARMv8.2 instruction set, this is not a requirement for running Windows 11 Pro ARM. The minimum instruction set required for Windows 11 on ARM-based devices is ARMv8, which provides 64-bit support and other necessary features. However, some ARM processors that support ARMv8.2 may provide additional performance and security benefits, such as mitigations for certain types of side-channel attacks, which could potentially enhance the overall security and performance of a Windows 11 Pro ARM device.

The replies weren’t completely consistent, but it does seem like Windows 11 Pro ARM might continue to run on the Pi 400 for some time.