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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:29 pm

Can raspberry pi 5 go to sleep and later be woken up by HDMI CEC?
Jeff Geerling got shutdown current down to 1.9ma.
HDMI is connected to the BCM2712 which might be turned off at this shutdown mode.

Is there a mode that keeps BCM2712/HDMI on to check for HDMI wakeup?
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ejolson
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:57 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:29 pm
Can raspberry pi 5 go to sleep and later be woken up by HDMI CEC?
Jeff Geerling got shutdown current down to 1.9ma.
HDMI is connected to the BCM2712 which might be turned off at this shutdown mode.

Is there a mode that keeps BCM2712/HDMI on to check for HDMI wakeup?
Does a Pi 5 have a run pin like other models of Pi that will start it from shutdown mode?

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thagrol
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:59 pm

ejolson wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:57 pm
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:29 pm
Can raspberry pi 5 go to sleep and later be woken up by HDMI CEC?
Jeff Geerling got shutdown current down to 1.9ma.
HDMI is connected to the BCM2712 which might be turned off at this shutdown mode.

Is there a mode that keeps BCM2712/HDMI on to check for HDMI wakeup?
Does a Pi 5 have a run pin like other models of Pi that will start it from shutdown mode?
Not that I can see but there is the two pin (header not fitted) connection for a remoted power button that could be used.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm

geerlingguy wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:31 pm
soundcheck wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:14 pm
I just figured that the (custom) Kernel build documentation has not been updated for the PI5 (kernel_2712.img etc).

https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentati ... ernel.html

And it also seems that the new RPIOS structure inside Bookworm (e.g. /boot/firmware) has not been introduced.

I'd appreciate if the doc would be updated accordingly.

If there's related info to be found somewhere else just let me know.

THX
Ahead of you there ;)

https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/pull/3284
Nice.

However.

You

(1) didn't cover the cross-compiling part, which makes everything look inconsistent now.
(2) didn't consider that not everybody runs Bookworm, where the /boot/firmware structure got introduced - if I am not mistaken


As a further enhancement on that page I'd suggest that an advice should be introduced to hold back some kernel related packages from updates to avoid that custom kernels get overwritten.

Something like

Code: Select all


# To avoid that custom kernels get overwritten, certain packages must be blocked from being updated:
sudo apt-mark hold linux-headers-rpi-2712 linux-headers-rpi-v8 linux-image-rpi-2712 linux-image-rpi-v8
would probably do.

Thx for your efforts (and your blog!).

PS:
Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon? The kernel seems to get solid maintenance on github.
Anybody running a custom 6.5 kernel on a PI5?
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:39 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon?
6.5 isn’t a LTS branch so it won’t become the official release kernel.

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B.Goode
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:02 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm

Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon?

Probably not. It seems to be beyond their interest and influence. https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:03 pm

trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:39 pm
soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon?
6.5 isn’t a LTS branch so it won’t become the official release kernel.
It supposedly supports PI5 graphics much better, doesn't it !?!? I don't know if they have got
anything backported to 6.1 though.

Anyhow.

6.6 has been confirmed to be the next LTS. Hope the kernel folks will soon switch their
kernel efforts to 6.6 instead of "wasting" ;) further efforts on 6.5.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:17 pm

The Pi kernel itself tends to have everything a Pi needs as up to date as it can be. The main linux kernel only has what has been added upstream.

You can pull 6.5 or 6.6 down now if you want to use it, see rpi-update
I cannot say how well it would work, or what might be missing.

redvli
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:56 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Something like

Code: Select all


# To avoid that custom kernels get overwritten, certain packages must be blocked from being updated:
sudo apt-mark hold linux-headers-rpi-2712 linux-headers-rpi-v8 linux-image-rpi-2712 linux-image-rpi-v8
would probably do.

Thx for your efforts (and your blog!).

PS:
Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon? The kernel seems to get solid maintenance on github.
Anybody running a custom 6.5 kernel on a PI5?
see scripts:

Code: Select all

root@raspi9:~# dpkg -L raspi-firmware | grep z50
/etc/initramfs/post-update.d/z50-raspi-firmware
/etc/kernel/postinst.d/z50-raspi-firmware
/etc/kernel/postrm.d/z50-raspi-firmware
You can have multiple kernels installed, including your own custom/compiled kernels. Just make sure you know from which the kernel*.img+initramfs*+DTB's are copied to the bootFAT. If you would use GRUB you would be able to select the wished one at Pi boot time. update-initramfs -u copies the 'latest' onto the bootFAT AFAIR, haven't looked in detail at the scripts.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:51 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:03 pm
trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:39 pm
soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Does anybody know if the foundation considers to switch to 6.5 any time soon?
6.5 isn’t a LTS branch so it won’t become the official release kernel.
It supposedly supports PI5 graphics much better, doesn't it !?!? I don't know if they have got
anything backported to 6.1 though.

Anyhow.

6.6 has been confirmed to be the next LTS. Hope the kernel folks will soon switch their
kernel efforts to 6.6 instead of "wasting" ;) further efforts on 6.5.
There is already the rpi-6.6.y kernel branch, and the CI builds all pushes automatically, so "sudo rpi-update rpi-6.6.y" should update. You need to set the "auto_initramfs=0" line in /boot/firmware/config.txt to avoid some funny mismatches.

Please be aware that there is a known issue with USB on at least Pi3 at present that is being worked on. Pi4 and Pi5 should be fully functional.
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soundcheck
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:35 pm

6by9 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:51 pm
soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:03 pm
trejan wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:39 pm

6.5 isn’t a LTS branch so it won’t become the official release kernel.
It supposedly supports PI5 graphics much better, doesn't it !?!? I don't know if they have got
anything backported to 6.1 though.

Anyhow.

6.6 has been confirmed to be the next LTS. Hope the kernel folks will soon switch their
kernel efforts to 6.6 instead of "wasting" ;) further efforts on 6.5.
There is already the rpi-6.6.y kernel branch, and the CI builds all pushes automatically, so "sudo rpi-update rpi-6.6.y" should update. You need to set the "auto_initramfs=0" line in /boot/firmware/config.txt to avoid some funny mismatches.

Please be aware that there is a known issue with USB on at least Pi3 at present that is being worked on. Pi4 and Pi5 should be fully functional.
THX for the hints.
I simply had the feeling, by looking at the commits the other day, that the 6.6. branch wasn't 1st prio on your side. Anyhow. I'll give a try.
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soundcheck
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:38 pm

Another question.

I experienced a nasty EMI/RFI HW interference issue on the RPi4 while running Wifi and HDMI. Can anybody (who might also experienced it) confirm that this is no longer present on the RPi 5 ?

Thx.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:49 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:38 pm
Another question.

I experienced a nasty EMI/RFI HW interference issue on the RPi4 while running Wifi and HDMI. Can anybody (who might also experienced it) confirm that this is no longer present on the RPi 5 ?

Thx.
Did anyone else confirm they also experienced the EMI problem you did? Is there a previous forum thread that could be linked to for reference?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:00 pm

RF interference is a known issue with USB 3.0, 2.4 GHz WiFi, and possibly HDMI. It is not limited to SBCs. though locating all the ports in close proximity makes it a bigger issue.

The actual Pi SBC are compliant for radiated emissions. The solution is typically to connect better grade peripherals using very good cables. Avoid poorly shielded micro-standard HDMI adaptors.

There have been reports of people having issues with the Pi 5 with USB 3.0 devices and wireless mice which is a classic RF interference issue.

I run USB 3.0 thumb drives and SSDs, wireless mice and have a connected HDMI monitor with no issues.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:19 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:00 pm
RF interference is a known issue with USB 3.0, 2.4 GHz WiFi, and possibly HDMI. It is not limited to SBCs. though locating all the ports in close proximity makes it a bigger issue.

The actual Pi SBC are compliant for radiated emissions. The solution is typically to connect better grade peripherals using very good cables. Avoid poorly shielded micro-standard HDMI adaptors.

There have been reports of people having issues with the Pi 5 with USB 3.0 devices and wireless mice which is a classic RF interference issue.

I run USB 3.0 thumb drives and SSDs, wireless mice and have a connected HDMI monitor with no issues.
And cameras (CSI) interfering and GNSS devices too.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:11 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:35 pm
6by9 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:51 pm
There is already the rpi-6.6.y kernel branch, and the CI builds all pushes automatically, so "sudo rpi-update rpi-6.6.y" should update. You need to set the "auto_initramfs=0" line in /boot/firmware/config.txt to avoid some funny mismatches.

Please be aware that there is a known issue with USB on at least Pi3 at present that is being worked on. Pi4 and Pi5 should be fully functional.
THX for the hints.
I simply had the feeling, by looking at the commits the other day, that the 6.6. branch wasn't 1st prio on your side. Anyhow. I'll give a try.
As well as the LTS branch (6.1), we always try to keep the latest active kernel branch active (currently 6.6), and will create a new branch generally once rc1 or rc2 is out (not quite yet for 6.7).

These branches will get rebased rather than merged which can skew the commit history significantly, and they get less testing by us than the LTS branch.
Now that 6.6 has been announced as LTS, we'll be starting to hammer it more heavily. Previously they hadn't announced the LTS statement until Jan or Feb, hence not becoming our stable kernel until typically late March. Once adopted as stable we switch to merging in upstream updates instead of rebasing.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:18 pm

bjtheone wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:00 pm
RF interference is a known issue with USB 3.0, 2.4 GHz WiFi, and possibly HDMI. It is not limited to SBCs. though locating all the ports in close proximity makes it a bigger issue.

The actual Pi SBC are compliant for radiated emissions. The solution is typically to connect better grade peripherals using very good cables. Avoid poorly shielded micro-standard HDMI adaptors.

There have been reports of people having issues with the Pi 5 with USB 3.0 devices and wireless mice which is a classic RF interference issue.

I run USB 3.0 thumb drives and SSDs, wireless mice and have a connected HDMI monitor with no issues.
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf
"USB 3.0* Radio Frequency Interference Impact on 2.4 GHz Wireless Devices" April 2012, by Intel.

There are certain HDMI modes that are more prone to interference than others, hence why the HDMI driver has a flag to shift the pixel clock. 1440p60 was the worst contender for that. https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commi ... b57821a5b7
That flag is set by default on Pi4.
Decent screening on cables helps a great deal.
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I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

ejolson
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:34 pm

6by9 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:18 pm
bjtheone wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:00 pm
RF interference is a known issue with USB 3.0, 2.4 GHz WiFi, and possibly HDMI. It is not limited to SBCs. though locating all the ports in close proximity makes it a bigger issue.

The actual Pi SBC are compliant for radiated emissions. The solution is typically to connect better grade peripherals using very good cables. Avoid poorly shielded micro-standard HDMI adaptors.

There have been reports of people having issues with the Pi 5 with USB 3.0 devices and wireless mice which is a classic RF interference issue.

I run USB 3.0 thumb drives and SSDs, wireless mice and have a connected HDMI monitor with no issues.
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/327216.pdf
"USB 3.0* Radio Frequency Interference Impact on 2.4 GHz Wireless Devices" April 2012, by Intel.

There are certain HDMI modes that are more prone to interference than others, hence why the HDMI driver has a flag to shift the pixel clock. 1440p60 was the worst contender for that. https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commi ... b57821a5b7
That flag is set by default on Pi4.
Decent screening on cables helps a great deal.
Thanks for the links. I already knew about the Intel paper but had not noticed the Linux patch to avoid 1440p60 conflicting with WiFi. That's is an interesting work around.

To rephrase the original question, is that flag needed for the Pi 5 as well?

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:47 pm

6by9 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:11 pm
Now that 6.6 has been announced as LTS, we'll be starting to hammer it more heavily. Previously they hadn't announced the LTS statement until Jan or Feb, hence not becoming our stable kernel until typically late March. Once adopted as stable we switch to merging in upstream updates instead of rebasing.
:D
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:22 pm

ejolson wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:34 pm
To rephrase the original question, is that flag needed for the Pi 5 as well?
Considering the much higher data rates on the PI5, I'd assume they had to build in
some more RFI countermeasures.

However.

The distance between critical parts such as Wifi Antenna/USB3/HDMI is pretty
much the same. Looks like a RFI challenge to me.
Let's hope the PCIe slot where the NVME HAT is going to be attached which sits right
next to the Wifi antenna will not be affected.

However. Let see first how the system behaves.

I do have a proposal:
Dear RPI HW designers.

Why can't you simply put a U.FL miniature RF connector right next to the Wifi antenna!?!?
Pretty much every mobile phone or tablet is doing it this way.

Allow the user to select either antenna by jumper, OR resistor or even SW.

You'll solve several challenges by offering an external U.FL Wifi antenna connection

PRO
(1) We'll get rid off hefty RFI potentially causing dysfunctional HW
(2) No need for going nuts by trying to buy the right HDMI cable
(3) We'd get much better Wifi reception by using an external antenna
(4) and that would also lead to a lower load (power and RF)
(5) No need for USB Wifi dongles
(6) the system will be much more flexible
(7) getting rid of issues with cases covering the onboard antenna
(8) cost savings on both sides
(9) even more happy customers ;)

CON
???

To me at least that looks like a nice proposition. Anybody agree? :D
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:28 pm

soundcheck wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:22 pm
I do have a proposal:
Dear RPI HW designers.

Why can't you simply put a U.FL miniature RF connector right next to the Wifi antenna!?!?
Pretty much every mobile phone or tablet is doing it this way.

Allow the user to select either antenna by jumper, OR resistor or even SW.

You'll solve several challenges by offering an external U.FL Wifi antenna connection

PRO
(1) We'll get rid off hefty RFI potentially causing dysfunctional HW
(2) No need for going nuts by trying to buy the right HDMI cable
(3) We'd get much better Wifi reception by using an external antenna
(4) and that would also lead to a lower load (power and RF)
(5) No need for USB Wifi dongles
(6) the system will be much more flexible
(7) getting rid of issues with cases covering the onboard antenna
(8) cost savings on both sides
(9) even more happy customers ;)

CON
???

To me at least that looks like a nice proposition. Anybody agree? :D
Two problems.

1) Board space. There's no room.
2) Compliance. Much harder to get approval if not using a fixed antenna.
Unreadable squiggle

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:35 pm

The Compute Module has that connector, but the rules say you can ONLY use the official antenna. If you use another antenna, then you will need to go through the compliance again. This is not cheap.


We do think about this stuff.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:56 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:35 pm
We do think about this stuff.
I bet you do. ;)
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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:05 pm

If there is an overclocking thread for the Pi5 that I simply missed / could not find; please link here.

In much of the initial media coverage for the Pi5 on youtube, I noticed many people were able to reach 3.0ghz on the CPU and 1.0ghz on the GPU, my 8GB model consistently has issues with stability with any GPU clock increases, has anybody else had this issue? any recommendations as far the config.txt changes? voltage ranges they are using for good stable overclocks? ( I realize silicon lottery is at play here, but these seem like overclocks that many people are able to get. )
-Csaba Nagy

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Re: Raspberry Pi 5 discussion thread

Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:28 pm

schoolpost wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:05 pm
If there is an overclocking thread for the Pi5 that I simply missed / could not find; please link here.

In much of the initial media coverage for the Pi5 on youtube, I noticed many people were able to reach 3.0ghz on the CPU and 1.0ghz on the GPU, my 8GB model consistently has issues with stability with any GPU clock increases, has anybody else had this issue? any recommendations as far the config.txt changes? voltage ranges they are using for good stable overclocks? ( I realize silicon lottery is at play here, but these seem like overclocks that many people are able to get. )
As mentioned in other posts I wouldn't touch the gpu settings, tried it myself and had nothing but trouble - on the other hand I've had great success overclocking the cpu on my 2 Pi 5's (8gb) to a stable 2.8GHz and even 2.9GHz without any over voltage needed.

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