ejolson
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 3:53 pm

lurk101 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:18 pm
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:44 am
I don't mind tinkering to get some programs running, but IME the Raspberry Pi SBC's tend to need less of it.
One advantage of Pi's software support is it works and there are many options.
The second advantage is learning how to compile stuff from source, including kernels on the Pi.
Handy for knowing how to DIY complex stuff on other SBC's.
The meaning of support is ambiguous. If you mean help with difficulties or misunderstandings, the yes Raspberry is better due to this forum. If support as in runs many different applications, then no difference.

Amrbian for the orangepi, and for all boards it supports (including the Pi4), has an excellent kernel build and image preparation system.
My impression is a continuing difficulty with the Linux desktop on ARM is performant GPUs with upstream video drivers in the kernel.

On x86 the AMD, Intel and the Noveau drivers all load firmware from the blob collection. For me the fact that the blob runs on the GPU is not as important as the video driver being supported by the team of Linux kernel developers. On the other hand, the fact that the code running on the CPU is open source may be what makes this type of support possible.

Having the driver included upstream means new releases of the kernel don't break the driver and moreover that developers of desktop operating systems can build a generic kernel and focus more of their efforts on the usability aspects of their computing environment. This cooperation where no one group has to do everything is what makes Linux on x86 unique.

Said another way, third party distributions are an important part of the Linux desktop ecosystem; however, it's no fun to maintain a third party distribution that runs on a bunch of ARM SBCs.
Last edited by ejolson on Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

twilightened
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:58 pm

I just ordered my second Pi. That is how much i loved it. I am selling my 4s.

keyboardman
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:00 pm

twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:58 pm
I just ordered my second Pi. That is how much i loved it. I am selling my 4s.
Hey, let other people buy it too. :evil:

twilightened
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:16 pm

keyboardman wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:00 pm
twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:58 pm
I just ordered my second Pi. That is how much i loved it. I am selling my 4s.
Hey, let other people buy it too. :evil:
Tell this to the mega corporations which buy in the thousands :) And i am returning my Pi4s into the market so i am equalizing :P

jamesh
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:56 pm

twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:16 pm
keyboardman wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:00 pm
twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 5:58 pm
I just ordered my second Pi. That is how much i loved it. I am selling my 4s.
Hey, let other people buy it too. :evil:
Tell this to the mega corporations which buy in the thousands :) And i am returning my Pi4s into the market so i am equalizing :P
Megacorps are not buying 5s yet.
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Gavinmc42
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:49 pm

Megacorps are not buying 5s yet.
Probably waiting for 6.6LTS and those Wayland/Wayfire niggles to get fixed.
Will take 6 months for them to get comfortable with the new hardware and software.
Then they might prefer the CM5 so it will probably be 2H24 before those get out in number.

It could be into 2025 before megacorps are happy to buy large numbers.
The difference between the Pi4 and Pi5 is bigger than Pi3 to Pi4.
That RP1 changes how things will be done for next gen Pi's and that is still mostly undocumented.

None of this stops us from using it as a much better daily driver.
What megacorp needs Pi5 as a daily driver? The Digital Display mob
The Thin Client crowd probably have a wish list for the Pi500.
The Embedded CM crowd will want a peak at the CM5 before opening their wallets.

Plus Eben promised us makers will get Pi's for Xmas.
Or probably New Years for us further away.
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redvli
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:20 am

twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:16 pm
Tell this to the mega corporations which buy in the thousands :) And i am returning my Pi4s into the market so i am equalizing :P
Mega corporations develop their own SoC and hardware. I don't know what you mean with mega, high stock value or a lot of employees in need of a screen (and a computer somewhere attached, usually inside).

The latter will stick to the usual fully integrated products Intel/AMD/Apple SoC laptop or Iphone/Android for mobile. If they want Linux, you as employee hit a wall of unwillingness, IT personnel who more or less see you as a betrayer or security problem. That is at least my experience. Whole teams had to use CygWin. When that IT personnel was on holiday, some MS high guy sneaked in and a year later all Sun workstations were replaced by many more Windows boxes that of course offered no easy remote login, multi-user, etc.

At home I always did shrink the Windows partitions and put Linux on additional partitions to dual boot. Not great when HDD as end of disk is slower, but for modern SSD flash storage no problem if Linux is put on /dev/sda5 or whatever. Nowadays I have Linux at the start of the SSD and bought a 20 euros Windows 10 license that runs in a virtual machine (it is for scanning paper letters mostly, then OCR).
Last edited by redvli on Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

ejolson
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:31 am

redvli wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:20 am
twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:16 pm
Tell this to the mega corporations which buy in the thousands :) And i am returning my Pi4s into the market so i am equalizing :P
Mega corporations develop their own SoC and hardware. I don't know what you mean with mega, high stock value or a lot of employees in need of a screen (and a computer somewhere attached, usually inside). The latter will stick to the usual fully integrated products Intel/AMD/Apple SoC laptop or Iphone/Android for mobile.
From the rest of the sentence the term mega corporation appears to refer to any which buys thousands of Pi computers. While I would have called that a kilo corporation and reserved mega for those who buy millions, the meaning seems clear enough.

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:22 pm

redvli wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:20 am
twilightened wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 7:16 pm
Tell this to the mega corporations which buy in the thousands :) And i am returning my Pi4s into the market so i am equalizing :P
Mega corporations develop their own SoC and hardware. I don't know what you mean with mega, high stock value or a lot of employees in need of a screen (and a computer somewhere attached, usually inside).

The latter will stick to the usual fully integrated products Intel/AMD/Apple SoC laptop or Iphone/Android for mobile. If they want Linux, you as employee hit a wall of unwillingness, IT personnel who more or less see you as a betrayer or security problem. That is at least my experience. Whole teams had to use CygWin. When that IT personnel was on holiday, some MS high guy sneaked in and a year later all Sun workstations were replaced by many more Windows boxes that of course offered no easy remote login, multi-user, etc.

At home I always did shrink the Windows partitions and put Linux on additional partitions to dual boot. Not great when HDD as end of disk is slower, but for modern SSD flash storage no problem if Linux is put on /dev/sda5 or whatever. Nowadays I have Linux at the start of the SSD and bought a 20 euros Windows 10 license that runs in a virtual machine (it is for scanning paper letters mostly, then OCR).
Why do you limit your definition of mega-corporations to just "tech" companies. Think broader. Think of automation. Think agriculture for example. Think vending machines, think ad screens and stuff. The options are endless. Go to reddit page "pi in the wild".

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Gavinmc42
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:38 pm

Do those digital signage displays use Pi4 or CM4?
At the moment only Pi5 4Gb and 8GB are in production and that is still ramping up.
At the moment we still don't know if CM5 will be plug in compatible with CM4.

What mega corp wants 1000's of Pi5 right now?
Hmm Starlink? I doubt Pi5 is space rated yet.

Good luck getting millions of Pi5's now, I think originally the figure was about 500.000 by Xmas.
Was it 70,000 per week or now 90,000 per week?
It might make 1M, didn't someone say ramp up was better than expected?

There are still so many unknowns both in the new hardware, software and availability.
Those mega corps might not even want 8GB, they might only need the 1GB or 2GB Pi5.
Embedded apps generally use less memory and there can be lots of saving if buying 1000 Pi5 1GB over 1000 Pi5 8GB.
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redvli
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:05 pm

twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:22 pm
Why do you limit your definition of mega-corporations to just "tech" companies.
Because this topic is about 'desktop'.

twilightened
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:57 pm

redvli wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:05 pm
twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:22 pm
Why do you limit your definition of mega-corporations to just "tech" companies.
Because this topic is about 'desktop'.
I don't think any corporation, small or big, would actually buy RPI for its desktop qualities :)

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:19 pm

twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:57 pm
redvli wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:05 pm
twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:22 pm
Why do you limit your definition of mega-corporations to just "tech" companies.
Because this topic is about 'desktop'.
I don't think any corporation, small or big, would actually buy RPI for its desktop qualities :)
Why on earth would you think that? Pi 4/desktop gets used commercially all the time. For many client applications even a Pi4 is good enough. The Pi 5 is even better. Corporations can be very cost-sensitive, Pi/desktop is very cheap, and not limited to tech companies.
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Meet me and the Pi team at Embedded World in Nürnberg, April 9th-11th, 2024
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https://events.raspberrypi.com/official/24d5151d-dd0f-483d-88a7-a5fddaa5c554

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:32 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:38 pm
Do those digital signage displays use Pi4 or CM4?
At the moment only Pi5 4Gb and 8GB are in production and that is still ramping up.
At the moment we still don't know if CM5 will be plug in compatible with CM4.

What mega corp wants 1000's of Pi5 right now?
Hmm Starlink? I doubt Pi5 is space rated yet.

Good luck getting millions of Pi5's now, I think originally the figure was about 500.000 by Xmas.
Was it 70,000 per week or now 90,000 per week?
It might make 1M, didn't someone say ramp up was better than expected?

There are still so many unknowns both in the new hardware, software and availability.
Those mega corps might not even want 8GB, they might only need the 1GB or 2GB Pi5.
Embedded apps generally use less memory and there can be lots of saving if buying 1000 Pi5 1GB over 1000 Pi5 8GB.
Pi 4 or CM4, either are used in signage. Pi 4 is more likely. Only need 4GB usually. Sometimes less.

The amount of interest in any proposed CM5 has been....considerable.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.
Meet me and the Pi team at Embedded World in Nürnberg, April 9th-11th, 2024
Hall 3A Stand 138
https://events.raspberrypi.com/official/24d5151d-dd0f-483d-88a7-a5fddaa5c554

twilightened
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:57 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:19 pm
twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:57 pm
redvli wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:05 pm

Because this topic is about 'desktop'.
I don't think any corporation, small or big, would actually buy RPI for its desktop qualities :)
Why on earth would you think that? Pi 4/desktop gets used commercially all the time. For many client applications even a Pi4 is good enough. The Pi 5 is even better. Corporations can be very cost-sensitive, Pi/desktop is very cheap, and not limited to tech companies.
Are you talking about business machines that are purposed to do just one job. Like an online operation that the employee will just use one program and nothing else. Let's say a call center. If that is what you are talking about, well maybe, yes, it could be done. But any further utility requires a much more powerful machine. And if this is not a tech company with linux-savy employees, good luck teaching them Linux in the first place. I have seen very high level managers who can't enter a wifi password properly :)

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:07 pm

jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:32 pm
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:38 pm
Do those digital signage displays use Pi4 or CM4?
At the moment only Pi5 4Gb and 8GB are in production and that is still ramping up.
At the moment we still don't know if CM5 will be plug in compatible with CM4.

What mega corp wants 1000's of Pi5 right now?
Hmm Starlink? I doubt Pi5 is space rated yet.

Good luck getting millions of Pi5's now, I think originally the figure was about 500.000 by Xmas.
Was it 70,000 per week or now 90,000 per week?
It might make 1M, didn't someone say ramp up was better than expected?

There are still so many unknowns both in the new hardware, software and availability.
Those mega corps might not even want 8GB, they might only need the 1GB or 2GB Pi5.
Embedded apps generally use less memory and there can be lots of saving if buying 1000 Pi5 1GB over 1000 Pi5 8GB.
Pi 4 or CM4, either are used in signage. Pi 4 is more likely. Only need 4GB usually. Sometimes less.

The amount of interest in any proposed CM5 has been....considerable.
CM5 would be overkill for signage. I'm curious about what they have in mind for CM5?

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:36 pm

twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:57 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:19 pm
twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:57 pm


I don't think any corporation, small or big, would actually buy RPI for its desktop qualities :)
Why on earth would you think that? Pi 4/desktop gets used commercially all the time. For many client applications even a Pi4 is good enough. The Pi 5 is even better. Corporations can be very cost-sensitive, Pi/desktop is very cheap, and not limited to tech companies.
Are you talking about business machines that are purposed to do just one job. Like an online operation that the employee will just use one program and nothing else. Let's say a call center. If that is what you are talking about, well maybe, yes, it could be done. But any further utility requires a much more powerful machine. And if this is not a tech company with linux-savy employees, good luck teaching them Linux in the first place. I have seen very high level managers who can't enter a wifi password properly :)
Many business cases have employees that live totally within the application or applications. Almost zero OS knowledge required. Call centers, data entry, call transcribing, appointment booking, etc.

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:31 pm

lurk101 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:07 pm
CM5 would be overkill for signage. I'm curious about what they have in mind for CM5?
Let's see. 2 x HDMI 4KP60, plus 2x DSI sounds quite attractive for signage.
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:36 pm

twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:57 pm
jamesh wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:19 pm
twilightened wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 1:57 pm


I don't think any corporation, small or big, would actually buy RPI for its desktop qualities :)
Why on earth would you think that? Pi 4/desktop gets used commercially all the time. For many client applications even a Pi4 is good enough. The Pi 5 is even better. Corporations can be very cost-sensitive, Pi/desktop is very cheap, and not limited to tech companies.
Are you talking about business machines that are purposed to do just one job. Like an online operation that the employee will just use one program and nothing else. Let's say a call center. If that is what you are talking about, well maybe, yes, it could be done. But any further utility requires a much more powerful machine. And if this is not a tech company with linux-savy employees, good luck teaching them Linux in the first place. I have seen very high level managers who can't enter a wifi password properly :)
You don't need to be Linux savvy. It's just a normal desktop with normal Office-like applications. Most people are not even Windows savvy. Point, click, do stuff. The machine is set up by IT, they just do their jobs.

Put it like this, when I started using IBM compatibles, they were way less powerful than the Pi4, and we were able to do loads of stuff.

Just out of interest, what run-of-the-mill business things need "A much more powerful machine"?
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Meet me and the Pi team at Embedded World in Nürnberg, April 9th-11th, 2024
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Gavinmc42
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:01 pm

The amount of interest in any proposed CM5 has been....considerable.
Good luck keeping everyone happy with whatever you guys come up with for CM5.
I expect the gnashing of teeth will be quieter but from those with bigger wallets.
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jamesh
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:18 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:01 pm
The amount of interest in any proposed CM5 has been....considerable.
Good luck keeping everyone happy with whatever you guys come up with for CM5.
I expect the gnashing of teeth will be quieter but from those with bigger wallets.
We never keep everyone happy, just the majority! Although the minority are usually quite vocal in their distaste.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.
Meet me and the Pi team at Embedded World in Nürnberg, April 9th-11th, 2024
Hall 3A Stand 138
https://events.raspberrypi.com/official/24d5151d-dd0f-483d-88a7-a5fddaa5c554

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:07 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:18 am
Gavinmc42 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:01 pm
The amount of interest in any proposed CM5 has been....considerable.
Good luck keeping everyone happy with whatever you guys come up with for CM5.
I expect the gnashing of teeth will be quieter but from those with bigger wallets.
We never keep everyone happy, just the majority! Although the minority are usually quite vocal in their distaste.
No kidding. Squeaky wheels, and all that.

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:42 pm

1080p 60fps youtube playback without any frame drops is "possible" on Pi5.

Here is how:

1. Switch to X11 (yes, you won't get this on wayland).
2. Disable the screen compositor (in my case it was kwin as i am on KDE plasma. For a different desktop, it will be different. Even the RPIOS has its own compositor and i think it is easy to disable it via "raspi-config". Why are we doing this? Because compositors eat away system resources and also, in order to prevent screen tearing, limit the number of frames displayed on the screen. And this somehow interferes with what we are about to do. Compositors are also causing all kinds of other issues like a sluggish mouse cursor on wayland but of course this is another story.
3. Run Chromium and enjoy 60fps youtube.

Now, here is the catch. Because we are on X11 and because we disabled the compositor, you will notice screen tearing. However, you will also notice that the video plays a lot smoother compared to before and doesn't skip as many frames (just some in the very beginning). If you go fullscreen from here, screen tearing also goes away and video still plays without any frame drops (at least in my case).

By the way, disabling the compositor also resolves the flickering mouse cursor issue on X11 KDE. I seriously started to think that wayland and screen compositors are the enemy. Seriously, what do we gain in return for losing all that performance and responsiveness? For a daily driver, what is the actual "plus" that comes with wayland over X11? And what about these "compositors"? If one can disable it and still use the desktop perfectly fine even with more performance mind you, then what is the use of that?

Just try it for yourself. RPI 5 is a beast. You just need to use the right software to unlock it. And i am sorry but, wayland still needs a lot of work.
Last edited by twilightened on Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:31 pm

twilightened wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:42 pm
1080p 60fps youtube playback without any frame drops is "possible" on Pi5.

Here is how:

1. Switch to X11 (yes, you won't get this on wayland).
2. Disable the screen compositor (in my case it was kwin as i am on KDE plasma. For a different desktop, it will be different. Even the RPIOS has its own compositor and i think it is easy to disable it via "raspi-config". Why are we doing this? Because compositors eat away system resources and also, in order to prevent screen tearing, limit the number of frames displayed on the screen. And this somehow interferes with what we are about to do. Compositors are also causing all kinds of other issues like a sluggish mouse cursor on wayland but of course this is another story.
3. Install "freetube". You can easily install it via "Pi Apps".
Install Pi Apps via this terminal command:

Code: Select all

wget -qO- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Botspot/pi-apps/master/install | bash
Then open Pi Apps and install freetube.
4. Open Freetube. Go to settings/playback. Adjust it to use "dash" formats and set the max. resolution to 1080p. Actutally you can skip this step because it is default.
5. Search for a 60 fps video and just play one of them. Here is one example https://youtu.be/LXb3EKWsInQ

Now, here is the catch. Because we are on X11 and because we disabled the compositor, you will notice screen tearing. However, you will notice that the video plays a lot smoother compared to Chromium and doesn't skip any frames (just a couple frames in the very beginning). You can actually right click and select "show video statistics" in freetube. You will be surprised. In my case, if i go fullscreen from here, screen tearing also goes away and video still plays without any frame drops.

By the way, disabling the compositor also resolves the flickering mouse cursor issue on X11 KDE. I seriously started to think that wayland and screen compositors are the enemy. Seriously, what do we gain in return for losing all that performance and responsiveness? For a daily driver, what is the actual "plus" that comes with wayland over X11? And what about these "compositors"? If one can disable it and still use the desktop perfectly fine even with more performance mind you, then what is the use of that?

Just try it for yourself. RPI 5 is a beast. You just need to use the right software to unlock it. And i am sorry but, wayland still needs a lot of work.
Totally agree with you. Wayland still needs a lot of work. It feels noticably slower than running bookworm on X11.
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Re: RPi 5 as a desktop daily driver?

Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:50 pm

Totally agree with you. Wayland still needs a lot of work. It feels noticably slower than running bookworm on X11.
Totally agree. But that's what's funny, since being faster was the whole selling point of Wayland. Lots of claims were made on this board upon its release about how much faster it was (is).
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