RDPUser
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Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:07 am

Hallo,

I have a PI4 which has 2 USB 3.0 ports. However I've noticed some over USB over current messages, when using both USB 3.0 ports with external 2,5" HDDs.

Code: Select all

[  134.627829] usb usb2-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.825751] usb 1-1-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.863525] usb usb2-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.065994] usb 1-1-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.103532] usb usb2-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.306053] usb 1-1-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.343530] usb usb2-port4: over-current change #1
[  135.546088] usb 1-1-port4: over-current change #1
I have a USB current tester and when there is load on the other USB 3.0 port then I can't draw 900 mA as the specs say, because port shutsdown with over current message. When there is no load on the other port I can get about 1100 mA before shutting down, which is great.

So are there any measures to get more power out of the USB ports? I'm using the official USB-C PSU with 3A output.

Thanks for help.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:20 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:07 am
Hallo,

I have a PI4 which has 2 USB 3.0 ports. However I've noticed some over USB over current messages, when using both USB 3.0 ports with external 2,5" HDDs.

Code: Select all

[  134.627829] usb usb2-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.825751] usb 1-1-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.863525] usb usb2-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.065994] usb 1-1-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.103532] usb usb2-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.306053] usb 1-1-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.343530] usb usb2-port4: over-current change #1
[  135.546088] usb 1-1-port4: over-current change #1
I have a USB current tester and when there is load on the other USB 3.0 port then I can't draw 900 mA as the specs say, because port shutsdown with over current message. When there is no load on the other port I can get about 1100 mA before shutting down, which is great.

So are there any measures to get more power out of the USB ports? I'm using the official USB-C PSU with 3A output.

Thanks for help.

Maximum total USB peripheral current draw is 1200mA, it is not per port:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... /#pi-power
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

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FTrevorGowen
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:21 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:07 am
Hallo,

I have a PI4 which has 2 USB 3.0 ports. However I've noticed some over USB over current messages, when using both USB 3.0 ports with external 2,5" HDDs.

Code: Select all

[  134.627829] usb usb2-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.825751] usb 1-1-port1: over-current change #1
[  134.863525] usb usb2-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.065994] usb 1-1-port2: over-current change #1
[  135.103532] usb usb2-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.306053] usb 1-1-port3: over-current change #1
[  135.343530] usb usb2-port4: over-current change #1
[  135.546088] usb 1-1-port4: over-current change #1
I have a USB current tester and when there is load on the other USB 3.0 port then I can't draw 900 mA as the specs say, because port shutsdown with over current message. When there is no load on the other port I can get about 1100 mA before shutting down, which is great.

So are there any measures to get more power out of the USB ports? I'm using the official USB-C PSU with 3A output.

Thanks for help.
The limit, with a good PSU (eg. the official one which you have), is ~1200mA shared (distributed) over all 4 USB ports. Assuming you have a keyboard & mouse (or similar) plugged into USB2 port(s) you're seeing "expected" behaviour.
External HDD's (as opposed to SSD's) are quite "power hungry" esp. during "spin-up" so w.r.t. using two, external power (or a powered hub) is a better approach. (Where does your "900 mA as the specs say" come from?)
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, 2xB2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B, B+, and a A+) but Buster on the P3B+, P4B's & P400. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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thagrol
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:23 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:07 am
So are there any measures to get more power out of the USB ports? I'm using the official USB-C PSU with 3A output.
No*. Maximum current over all four USB ports is 1.2A. Get a self powered USB 3 hub and connect the drives through that. Make sure the hub doesn't backfeed power to the Pi or you'll likely have problems (re)booting.

*: Well not unless you're willing to ake a soldering iron to the Pi and maybe not even then.
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:24 am

FTrevorGowen wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:21 am
(Where does your "900 mA as the specs say" come from?)
Isn't that the USB 3 spec for maximum curent a device can draw at 5v?
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:29 am

thagrol wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:24 am
FTrevorGowen wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:21 am
(Where does your "900 mA as the specs say" come from?)
Isn't that the USB 3 spec for maximum curent a device can draw at 5v?
Yes exactly, that is what I thougt from the USB 3.0 specication.
*: Well not unless you're willing to ake a soldering iron to the Pi and maybe not even then.
I would be willing to solder, if it is safe.
Make sure the hub doesn't backfeed power to the Pi or you'll likely have problems (re)booting.
I had connected an active hub and exactly that was the problem. PI didn't boot at all. I even didn't get an image. It was a Transcend USB 3.0 HUB. Can you recommend me some active hub with low power consumption?

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:36 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:29 am
I had connected an active hub and exactly that was the problem. PI didn't boot at all. I even didn't get an image. It was a Transcend USB 3.0 HUB. Can you recommend me some active hub with low power consumption?
Sorry, no. Never had to use one. If it were USB 2 I'd say mod the cable by cutting the red wire. Something similar is probably possible on USB 3 but I've never had to do it.
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:49 am

Thanks. Thats a good idea. I try cutting the power wire in the USB cable. What is the technical backgroud that RPI4 won't boot with power backfeed from USB hub?

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:54 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:49 am
Thanks. Thats a good idea. I try cutting the power wire in the USB cable. What is the technical backgroud that RPI4 won't boot with power backfeed from USB hub?
Backfeeding is the problem! Get a good quality USB2 power hub as this will not backfeed to the host.

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:01 am

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:29 am
I had connected an active hub and exactly that was the problem. PI didn't boot at all. I even didn't get an image. It was a Transcend USB 3.0 HUB. Can you recommend me some active hub with low power consumption?
hdd disk with current consumption 1A , get 1.7A at spin up.
search for hub with current min 2A/per output and min 4A total.
Pi4-4G RaspiOS 32 BuLlSeYe

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thagrol
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:55 pm

aBUGSworstnightmare wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:54 am
RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:49 am
Thanks. Thats a good idea. I try cutting the power wire in the USB cable. What is the technical backgroud that RPI4 won't boot with power backfeed from USB hub?
Backfeeding is the problem! Get a good quality USB2 power hub as this will not backfeed to the host.
We know. And USB 2 will dramatically reduce HDD performance.
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
Need help? https://github.com/thagrol/Guides

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:57 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:49 am
Thanks. Thats a good idea. I try cutting the power wire in the USB cable. What is the technical backgroud that RPI4 won't boot with power backfeed from USB hub?
It's been explained several times on the forum but I don't have links to hand. AIUI 5v coming in over the USB A ports stops the PMIC coming up correctly which means not all voltages are available which means the SoC doesn't come up.
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:05 pm

RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:29 am
....Can you recommend me some active hub with low power consumption?
low-power device to supply power high-power demand device?
like a 5W USB hub to supply power to 9W (2 x 4.5W) drives....
its back to square one....

get a USB hub that matches the power requirements of your 2 drives, with a bit of an extra power, like a 12W or 15W USB hub
with each port capable of supplying at 2A...

am using a 10-port USB3 hub from Orico (I need/require 10 ports)... try looking at their USB hub lineup to see what model fits your "standards"
"Don't come to me with 'issues' for I don't know how to deal with those
Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:27 pm

LTolledo wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:05 pm
RDPUser wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:29 am
....Can you recommend me some active hub with low power consumption?
low-power device to supply power high-power demand device?
like a 5W USB hub to supply power to 9W (2 x 4.5W) drives....
its back to square one....
A "5W" USB 2 hub should only have 2 ports. For a 4-port hub, the PSU should supply *at* *least* 2A at 5v (10W).
am using a 10-port USB3 hub from Orico (I need/require 10 ports)... try looking at their USB hub lineup to see what model fits your "standards"
A PSU for a 10-port USB 3 hub should be rated for at least 9A at 5v (45W).

RDPUser
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:40 pm

For those who are interested. I've found an active USB 3.0 Hub from CSL. No power is backfeed and powerconsumption of this Hub is as low as 0.1 Watts. Seems to be available in Germany only, didn't find it on Amazon.com, only on DE https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B01K7RR3W8

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:21 pm

Heinz Kurtzmann wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:07 pm
Hallo RPDUser
der von mir benutzte Junluck 4-Port-Hub, 5Gbit/s-USB3.0-Hub-Adapter mit Anschluss für externe Stromversorgung funktioniert sehr gut. Er hat ein recht kurzes USB3.0-Anschlusskabel mit USB3.0-A-Stecker. Er eignete sich hervorragend für den Einbau zusammen mit dem RPi4 und einem X735 Power-Management-Board in ein gemeinsames Gehäuse. Die Versorgung des RPi4 erfolgte vom X735 überdessen GPIO-Leiste und die des Hub über einen weiteren 5V-Ausgangstecker des X735. Außerdem sorgt das X735 Board für eine effektive Kühlung des RPi. Bei Anschluss eines geeigneten 5VDC-Netzteils an die Powerbuchse des X735 kann dieses Board im Extremfall in der Summe bis zu 12A für alle angeschlossene Verbraucher durchschalten.
Ich habe in einemTest 4 SSD's angeschlossen, deren Startstromstoß bei jeweis 1,49A lag. Es gab keine Probleme, weder beim Booten noch beim Kopieren ganzer SSD-Inhalte auf ein anderes SSD-Laufwerk.
;)
Google Translate wrote:Hello RPDUser

the Junluck 4-port hub I used, 5Gbit / s USB3.0 hub adapter with connection for external power supply works very well. It has a rather short USB3.0 connection cable with a USB3.0-A connector. It was ideally suited for installation together with the RPi4 and an X735 power management board in a common housing. The RPi4 was supplied from the X735 via its GPIO strip and the hub via another 5V output connector on the X735. In addition, the X735 board ensures effective cooling of the RPi. When a suitable 5VDC power supply is connected to the power socket of the X735, this board can in extreme cases switch through a total of up to 12A for all connected loads.

In a test, I connected 4 SSDs with a starting current surge of 1.49A each. There were no problems, either when booting or copying entire SSD contents to another SSD drive.
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mahjongg
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:08 pm

hienz kurtzmann received a short ban and a deleted post for using German here.

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:09 pm

@mahjongg: A ban just for posting german? Isn't that a bit too severe? (rhetorical question, no answer needed).

Anyway, for RPI 3B I've found that post https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... e-location explaining what to solder to have "full power" on USB ports. Which testpoints need to be soldered on RPI4 to get PSU input directly to USB ports?


I had the problem on a RPI 3B that writing to a 2,5" USB-HDD via USB wifi adapter lead to write errors on disk. I've only detected them by doing a checksum and e2fsck found a lot of errors on disk. Power wasn't so low that drive went away and wasn't mounted anymore. Tried with 2 different external 2,5" HDDs from different manufactures which had both similar problems. However on another RPI everything was fine.

Now the Wifi adapter is connected via an active powered USB port and the USB HDD remains directly connected and everything works fine. PSU is in both cases official RPI PSU and no undervoltage is ever detected. So problem isn't because of bad PSU.
Seems that the polyfuse on that particicular RPI 3B lead to voltage drop quite early whereas on the other 3B the USB voltage stays higher.
So it is likely that there are also some variations between different RPI4s. On one RPI4 the USB devices may work without problems whereas on the other RPI4 it works flawlessly.

Morphy99
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:26 pm

I'm trying to use both USB3 ports and am having some issues with a USB HDD connected to one of them which I'm pretty sure is power related after using a powered hub to eliminate the issue. I'd like to find a solution without degrading aesthetics with an external powered hub. Maybe some kind of power injection circuit to one of the USB3 cables/ports?

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:52 pm

Morphy99 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:26 pm
I'm trying to use both USB3 ports and am having some issues with a USB HDD connected to one of them which I'm pretty sure is power related after using a powered hub to eliminate the issue. I'd like to find a solution without degrading aesthetics with an external powered hub. Maybe some kind of power injection circuit to one of the USB3 cables/ports?
Find drives that don't need so much power, such as SATA-III SSDs.

Morphy99
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:10 pm

I've tried SATA III SSD's, a WD Blue M.2 SSD which has a max current draw of 667mA and a Kingston A400 which has a more economical 450mA. Tried both via a AR Forty M.2 SSD case. The problem is I'm trying to use it with a Google Coral and that has a max of 900mA.

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thagrol
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:23 pm

Morphy99 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:26 pm
I'm trying to use both USB3 ports and am having some issues with a USB HDD connected to one of them which I'm pretty sure is power related after using a powered hub to eliminate the issue. I'd like to find a solution without degrading aesthetics with an external powered hub.
Form over function huh?
Maybe some kind of power injection circuit to one of the USB3 cables/ports?
You'd most likely have to roll your own. Easy for USB 2 not so much for USB 3 given the more complex cable. I'd advise against using a commercially available "Y" cable because they're intended to connect to two ports on the same USB host device. Using one with a Pi and an external PSU will back feed power into the Pi via the USB port - something that can prevent it booting or conflict with teh Pi's PSU.

If looks are your main concern, why not get a bigger enclosure that wil hold the Pi, the coral, the USB hub, and the drive?
Knowledge, skills, & experience have value. If you expect to profit from someone's you should expect to pay for them.

All advice given is based on my experience. it worked for me, it may not work for you.
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Morphy99
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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:49 pm

thagrol wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:23 pm

Form over function huh?
Well, I'd prefer both where possible! I don't really need 5 USB3 ports, just the two that came with the Pi would be fine! And two power sockets for one device isn't ideal.

If looks are your main concern, why not get a bigger enclosure that wil hold the Pi, the coral, the USB hub, and the drive?
Is there such an enclosure commercially available? Something that doesn't look like a hacked box! I thought the Argon one was ideal, I've even managed to get the coral in there!

Rn I'm considering going to a SBC at a higher price point which powers the USB as per spec and has a nice case... NUC territory unfortunately.

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:58 am

It's unfortunate that Pi does not seem capable of functioning with low cost powered hubs. IMO should be considered a design defect that needs fixing.

I have a couple USB3 setups and it's frustrating to have to power down the PSU every time to reboot. I suspect there may be a trick involving external diodes or on-board short to fix this and may take another look when there's time. Or maybe somebody already did somewhere and I missed it.

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Re: Pi4 Increase USB power to support 2x 900mA at USB 3.0

Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:15 am

emma1997 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:58 am
It's unfortunate that Pi does not seem capable of functioning with low cost powered hubs.
Do you have any evidence that the Pi does not work with any standard-conformant hub?
Of course, if the hub does not conform, it is not reasonable to expect the Pi to compensate.
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