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HermannSW
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Location: Eberbach, Germany

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:39 pm

Disaster Incarnate wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:58 pm
cant see anything extra going inside the pi400 unless some clever ppl create a new slightly deeper bottom replacement for the case.
I would not say "anything", I just implant RTC into Pi400 inside so that it can be turned on/off from the outside:
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=293675&p=1778376#p1775263

I had the Pi400 open for doing that, so I did put my M2 SSD without enclosure near free space, and it cannot fit, even if only half the size:
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I had never unscrewed the heatsink sofar, now I did just to determine how much space is available under heatsink neighboring to that free space area. I was able to put two connected 4x2 flat Lego pieces below heatsink, but only with male side downward. As you can see I was able to completely fix the screw again. This was just for getting an idea of the free space available below heatsink there:
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https://hermann-sw.github.io/planar_graph_playground
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbt
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/memrun
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

VitalSpark
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:15 pm

Was thinking something similar.
Got a m2.2242 to usb convertor and a m2.2242 transcend 240 sata drive coming.
Was going to butcher the corner of the heatsink to make space exactly where your pictures are taken so the drive sits in that small cavity. 30mm by 50mm I think the PCB is for the M2 convertor.
Worked out it should be about 6mm high with drive attached and that's what the height of the POE chip is according to the data sheet.
Take the usb plug off the M2 convertor and hardwire to rear of usb socket. 9 pins for 9 pins.
Blank the usb off at the rear so it cannot be used.
This way if I ever wanted to return it to normal it wouldn't take much work.
I work away and won't get it done this year but will post here if I'm successful.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t!

Spielmops
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:04 am

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:44 pm

USB-Sound+Hub.jpg
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2 fly with one stone ...
There is an USB-Cable on top of the picture. There are more derivates of this kind, this is just an example.
Last edited by Spielmops on Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ejolson
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Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:46 pm

Disaster Incarnate wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:58 pm
cant see anything extra going inside the pi400 unless some clever ppl create a new slightly deeper bottom replacement for the case.
Simply using a suitable SD card is what the current Pi 400 calls for. They come in pretty large capacities and the A1-rated cards are fast enough. In particular, it's not difficult to imagine an A1 card really is an SSD, except in a form factor that immediately gets lost if one sneezes while holding it.

VitalSpark
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:09 pm

I sometimes wonder if this is exactly what the raspberry foundation envisaged when building the first pi.
If you want to use it with the SD card spec then that's totally acceptable.
If you want to install a RTCC like Hermann then that's equally cool as well. (appreciate the mod btw)
I'm just looking to adapt it to what I will use it for, and personally think an SSD will better my working environment.
SD cards are by no means a SSD in another case.
Anyone working a SSD off the back of the USB3 will tell you that.
Not expecting much boot speed increases, (at least not until rasp optimizes the SSD start up), but application execution speed improvement is what I am after.
At the end of the day, a mod like this may be a solution to SD cards going missing in a teaching environment or the realisation of how much the Pi community want to bend the rules.
Break the mould is what I guess the Pi makers were after, and what ever way you do it, or whatever way you fail is an achievement in my books.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t!

cleverca22
Posts: 6042
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:25 pm

VitalSpark wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:09 pm
I sometimes wonder if this is exactly what the raspberry foundation envisaged when building the first pi.
If you want to use it with the SD card spec then that's totally acceptable.
If you want to install a RTCC like Hermann then that's equally cool as well. (appreciate the mod btw)
I'm just looking to adapt it to what I will use it for, and personally think an SSD will better my working environment.
SD cards are by no means a SSD in another case.
Anyone working a SSD off the back of the USB3 will tell you that.
Not expecting much boot speed increases, (at least not until rasp optimizes the SSD start up), but application execution speed improvement is what I am after.
At the end of the day, a mod like this may be a solution to SD cards going missing in a teaching environment or the realisation of how much the Pi community want to bend the rules.
Break the mould is what I guess the Pi makers were after, and what ever way you do it, or whatever way you fail is an achievement in my books.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180316141 ... -teardown/

the roku2 is basically a pi1 with some extras:
  • onboard nand flash for the os
  • ir receiver for a remote
  • i2s DAC for better audio
  • onboard wifi/bluetooth
my view, is that the pi1 was basically just a heavily stripped down roku2
i think the bootcode.bin on SD was originally meant as a recovery mechanism to repair the nand flash
but for cost reasons, the pi1 had no onboard nand, so they had to create new hacks to load firmware from SD instead

the original design of the roku2 was to have the os on the nand flash, and the flash/os where chosen/built around the performance of eachother to keep a usable experience

but with the lower cost of the pi1, the user has to supply their own storage, and now your shoving a whole (stripped down) desktop distro onto a random sd card that wasnt rated for that kind of load
so i can see how performance would suffer some, compared to the original usage of the SoC

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HermannSW
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Location: Eberbach, Germany

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:17 pm

Disaster Incarnate wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:58 pm
cant see anything extra going inside the pi400 unless some clever ppl create a new slightly deeper bottom replacement for the case.
Just did a test, instead of a deeper case replacement, I did extend the Pi400 case with the M2 SSD enclosure I have -- just two drops of superglue and Pi400 case is extended (the SSD enclosure does not touch the desk). The good thing with superglue is, that it can be easily reverted.

I did use the same cable hiding trick as done with the Raspberry mouse cable for right handers, just pass in the middle free space below Pi400:
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https://hermann-sw.github.io/planar_graph_playground
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en#raspcatbt
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/memrun
https://github.com/Hermann-SW/Raspberry_v1_camera_global_external_shutter
https://stamm-wilbrandt.de/en/Raspberry_camera.html

VitalSpark
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:28 pm

Right.

I'm now what I would consider 95% there.

See pics. heatsink cut. 5% soak tested at full pelt and CPU not over 60⁰c

Usb socket removed. Hard wired usb (asm1153) and tested stage one all ok. Good speed and connectivity.

When I solder the usb cable onto the motherboard the usb controller didn't even see the usb drive.

All cables connections were ok, screened and in correct place.

Drive powered up but no communication whatsoever.

I'm now taking a step back and soldering a usb cable onto the SSD controller from inside the pi400 and taking it out the back to plug into one of the usb ports via a right angle usb extension.

If anyone has any suggestions as to why I couldn't solder onto the rear of the usb socket, I'm all ears.
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There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t!

VitalSpark
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:30 pm

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Couple of pics of the soldered connections at rear of usb socket.
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ejolson
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Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:44 pm

VitalSpark wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:30 pm
PSX_20210218_181717.jpg

PSX_20210218_181708.jpg

Couple of pics of the soldered connections at rear of usb socket.
When I've done stuff like that, I have found it astonishingly easy to reverse the wires. The difficulty is that connecting 5V to any of the data lines may result in damage. Have you checked whether it still works plugged into the socket?

Next time I would not remove the plug in until I was sure it worked without. I'd also suggest installing your own plug system internally so it is easy to remove.

Are the grounds connected?

VitalSpark
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:54 pm

The drive worked no problem when the original usb plug was removed from the usb to SSD controller.

Was running on the pi with it being plugged in at the socket.

It's only when I tried to solder onto the rear of the motherboard that it didn't work.

This was only 9 pins, and number for number pretty straight forward.

If the cables were wrong they would all be reversed including the power supply and would have ruined to usb SSD PCB.

I was thinking that I have a differential resistance through my solder joints that did not comply with usb 3 specs, but if this is the case I've never encountered it before?

I know the Tx and Rx pairs have to be individually screened and the same length, but they were pretty close tbh.

And the over all usb cable length only about 4" or so.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t!

VitalSpark
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:54 pm

Progress update:

Soldered new usb cable directly onto SSD usb controller. Out the back of the case and straight onto usb via a right angle plug to make it a bit neater.

Not what I had originally planned but for some reason soldering onto the usb socket was a no no.

Speed test complete and pretty fast according to James Chambers Benchmark page. And can still change the drive if I outgrow the 240Gb

I use a Bluetooth mouse so wasn't bothered about the USB2 but can still get access to second USB3 socket for a hub if it were required.

(When SSD was plugged in it obstructed both usb sockets/power supply)

I suppose it still has some pros, as I can now disconnect the drive if needed. It's still neat enough as an all in one computer and now with the drive instead of the SD card it's much much faster.
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Last edited by VitalSpark on Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t!

KeithMck
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:58 am

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:35 pm

Like it!

Very neat solution. 8-)

piguynoob
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:11 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:42 pm

Figured I would share my very ugly attempt at something similar here:

https://uglyduck.ca/pi-400-internal-ssd/

Hopefully can help someone looking to do the same (but better since mine is fairly ugly)

webbsmurfen
Posts: 61
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Location: Sweden

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:43 pm

Something to think about, and a wish for, is if we can get an m.2 slot in a future version of the rpi 400 model, that you can access from a a small detachable hatch under the keyboard
Last edited by webbsmurfen on Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cleverca22
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:55 pm

webbsmurfen wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:43 pm
Something to think about, and wish for if we get a new version of the rpi 400 model in the future would be a M.2 slot that you can access from a a small detachable hatch under the keyboard
if its pci-e based, youll loose all of your usb-3 ports
and if its only usb based, youll loose one usb port

neither sounds like a good choice

webbsmurfen
Posts: 61
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Location: Sweden

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:30 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:55 pm
webbsmurfen wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:43 pm
Something to think about, and wish for if we get a new version of the rpi 400 model in the future would be a M.2 slot that you can access from a a small detachable hatch under the keyboard
if its pci-e based, youll loose all of your usb-3 ports
and if its only usb based, youll loose one usb port

neither sounds like a good choice
Why not? we still have 2 usb ports!

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Imperf3kt
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Location: Australia

Re: SSD inside rpi 400?

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:24 pm

webbsmurfen wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:30 pm
cleverca22 wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:55 pm
webbsmurfen wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:43 pm
Something to think about, and wish for if we get a new version of the rpi 400 model in the future would be a M.2 slot that you can access from a a small detachable hatch under the keyboard
if its pci-e based, youll loose all of your usb-3 ports
and if its only usb based, youll loose one usb port

neither sounds like a good choice
Why not? we still have 2 usb ports!
Technically, no you don't.
The Pi400 usb ports are enumerated from one single port (it's a hub, not 3 individual usb ports) and the m.2 you request will need the full bandwidth of that usb lane, so there goes all your usb (including the keyboard)
55:55:44:44:4C
52:4C:52:42:41

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