mikev1963
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Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm

When will the 64-bit OS be released?

Mike

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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:16 pm

When it's out of beta and ready.

Obtain a piece of string and a pair of scissors to answer the "how long" question and you have as much chance of predicting it that way as the rest of us.
Languages using left-hand whitespace for syntax are ridiculous

DMs sent on https://twitter.com/DougieLawson or LinkedIn will be answered next month.
Fake doctors - are all on my foes list.

The use of crystal balls and mind reading is prohibited.

mikev1963
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:24 pm

Wow.

This is crazy.

When I work with other UNIX vendors (Redhat, Ubuntu, IBM) they all have plans and release dates.

I never realized this was so complicated?

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DougieLawson
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:31 pm

mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:24 pm

When I work with other UNIX vendors (Redhat, Ubuntu, IBM) they all have plans and release dates.
Nonsense. IBM has a strict rule of "Confidential until Announced". The announcement wouldn't happen until a product was out of beta testing (and possibly early support testing with selected customers (who'd have a NDA in place)). Pre-announcing things would get you dismissed from the company and in some cases sued.
Languages using left-hand whitespace for syntax are ridiculous

DMs sent on https://twitter.com/DougieLawson or LinkedIn will be answered next month.
Fake doctors - are all on my foes list.

The use of crystal balls and mind reading is prohibited.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:16 am

Been using 64bit OS's on Pi3/4's for 2+ years.
It just depends on what you want the 64bit OS for.
It is perfectly fine for desktop replacement use.
Some of the Pi hardware like camera, DSi display take longer to test.

Kernel 5.10.x seems pretty good.
Mesa 20.3+ is ok too.
Beta testers still run into issues, but people do weird things with Pi's

Why not try it yourself?
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

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jahboater
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:08 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:16 am
Why not try it yourself?
+1

It costs nothing to try and only a few minutes to deploy on a spare SD card.
In the unlikely event that you do have a problem, just put the old card back.

I have been using Raspberry Pi OS 64-bit since day one and never had a problem.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 27225
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:51 am

mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm
When will the 64-bit OS be released?

Mike

RPT / RPF do not issue a publically available Road Map and have stated on numerous occasions they are unwilling to do so, in actual fact this was covered in the appropriate post here:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=275372
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

Potemkin_McNasty
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am

I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.

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jahboater
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:53 am

Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.
With sales of over 35 million, more than half to commercial customers, its a remarkably successful hobby.

Again, just use the beta release.
Although I have found it perfectly reliable, you can just put it on a spare SD card and try it, with no risk.

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rpdom
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:54 am

Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.
Yet it seems to be a very successful product.

The idea about not announcing deadlines is that they can't then be missed.

It will be announced when it is ready.
Unreadable squiggle

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:56 am

Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.

Poppycock, Raspberry Pi Trading only have a small number of staff, though if you want to donate your time for free testing it will get released quicker.
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

Heater
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:43 am

Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.
What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

There are thousands of commercial products based on Linux and the ocean of Open Source software one can us with it. From cloud services like Amazon, Google, MS Azure etc down to smart embedded systems (I believe they call it "IoT" now a days).

Guess what? There is no road map for any of that. Things get done when they are done. That means either you have to wait on somebody else doing the work for you or you have to roll your sleeves up and contribute to the effort.

It's no good sitting around whining because people aren't providing you with the software you desire for free on demand. Rather be amazed, and very grateful that any of this happens at all!
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:02 pm

Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.
We do have a roadmap.

Although in the case of software, we do like to make sure stuff is ready before we release it, so schedules do tend to be flexible. So the likelihood of us stating a release date, and then that release date changing is probably getting on for 100%. Which I think is worse than having no release date.

Perhaps we should turn this around, and ask what specific feature of a 64bit OS do you need that means you *must* have a 64bit OS.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Ltd.
Working in the Applications Team.

testshoot
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:37 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:02 pm
Perhaps we should turn this around, and ask what specific feature of a 64bit OS do you need that means you *must* have a 64bit OS.
Maybe the features that justified going 64bit in the first place? :lol:

I'm patient but anxious, take your time, but don't, test thoroughly and also hurry up.

tibbe
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:21 am

I need a 64-bit OS as many k8s images only exist for 64-bit ARM.

Does the 64-bit branch on GitHub keep up with the 32-bit one for other things (i.e. will the 64-bit version have other fixes the 32-bit one has)?

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:18 am

I had to look up what k8s was.
Does it work now on Raspberry Pi Operating System 64?
R264 - are spaces include?

I have been pretty happy with 64bit OS on Pi's for some time now.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

KeithMck
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:32 am

mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm
When will the 64-bit OS be released?

Mike
Officially, when it's ready..........but actually, it's available for use now, & I've also been using it for several months, even though it's Beta, it's working well, I've not had any problems as a casual user, the usual stuff, internet, music, movies, etc.

bls
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:50 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:02 pm
Potemkin_McNasty wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:45 am
I also want to know when this will be released. A lack of roadmap makes raspberry seem more like a hobby than a commercial product.
We do have a roadmap.

Although in the case of software, we do like to make sure stuff is ready before we release it, so schedules do tend to be flexible. So the likelihood of us stating a release date, and then that release date changing is probably getting on for 100%. Which I think is worse than having no release date.

Perhaps we should turn this around, and ask what specific feature of a 64bit OS do you need that means you *must* have a 64bit OS.
Exactly. This is a "caught between a rock and a hard place" issue. As a former OS team developer, still have battle scars from declaring a release date and missing it because of unforseen whatevers.

Be happy that the Beta is stable, use it and report feedback as needed.
Pi tools:
Quickly and easily build customized-just-for-you SSDs/SD Cards: https://github.com/gitbls/sdm
Easily run and manage your network's DHCP/DNS servers on a Pi: https://github.com/gitbls/ndm
Easy and secure strongSwan VPN installer/manager: https://github.com/gitbls/pistrong
Lightweight Virtual VNC Config: https://github.com/gitbls/RPiVNCHowTo

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butchkemper
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:01 am

mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm
When will the 64-bit OS be released?

Mike
It will initially be released in Shangri La on the 12 of Never. ;)

Butch

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jahboater
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:03 am

KeithMck wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:32 am
mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm
When will the 64-bit OS be released?
Officially, when it's ready..........but actually, it's available for use now, & I've also been using it for several months, even though it's Beta, it's working well, I've not had any problems as a casual user, the usual stuff, internet, music, movies, etc.
+1
I have been using it from day one with zero problems.

I recently timed a large regression test script on three platforms (same compiler, same code, the two Pi's running at the same speed):

Code: Select all

RPiOS-32    96 minutes 20 sec
RPiOS-64    69 minutes 49 sec
Intel PC    52 minutes 20 sec
The Intel PC was an old i7-3770K CPU @ 3.5GHz.
It pleasing to see the tiny Pi4 8GB @ 2GHz catching up speed wise in 64-bit mode.

m4r35n357
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:09 am

jahboater wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:03 am
I have been using it from day one with zero problems.
Just another data point . . .

I have been using a 64 bit Pi400 for about two weeks now as my regular "upstairs" desktop. I have been developing and running numerical software in 64 bit and 32 bit mode, and have also been doing video calls using WebRTC with a cheap (£20) webcam (only works in Chromium though). I am now also booting from an external SSD (Samsung T7 - very nice!)

I haven't done any GPIO stuff.

Don't know if any of this helps, but I've said it now.

eeandersen
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:30 pm

jahboater wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:03 am
KeithMck wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:32 am
mikev1963 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:09 pm
When will the 64-bit OS be released?
I recently timed a large regression test script on three platforms (same compiler, same code, the two Pi's running at the same speed):

Code: Select all

RPiOS-32    96 minutes 20 sec
RPiOS-64    69 minutes 49 sec
Intel PC    52 minutes 20 sec
The Intel PC was an old i7-3770K CPU @ 3.5GHz.

It pleasing to see the tiny Pi4 8GB @ 2GHz catching up speed wise in 64-bit mode.
Nice and very interesting to see the performance comparison. Question about the Pi's. What was the memory in each of the tests? Would you be willing to repeat or expand the test to fully populate the Pi matrix to 2 OS's, 2 memories?

thanks!

Nitrax
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:39 pm

tibbe wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:21 am
I need a 64-bit OS as many k8s images only exist for 64-bit ARM.

Does the 64-bit branch on GitHub keep up with the 32-bit one for other things (i.e. will the 64-bit version have other fixes the 32-bit one has)?
If you use the k3s distribution of k8s at least, it will run perfectly fine with the standard rpi os pulling arm64 images and the only thing you need to change is to add

Code: Select all

arm_64bit=1
in /boot/config.txt

k3s even installs and runs as 64bit userland

Code: Select all

curl -sfL https://get.k3s.io | sh -

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jahboater
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:11 am

eeandersen,
Sorry just saw your post, the formatting has gone wrong!
eeandersen wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:30 pm
jahboater wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:03 am

Code: Select all

RPiOS-32    96 minutes 20 sec
RPiOS-64    69 minutes 49 sec
Intel PC    52 minutes 20 sec
Nice and very interesting to see the performance comparison. Question about the Pi's. What was the memory in each of the tests? Would you be willing to repeat or expand the test to fully populate the Pi matrix to 2 OS's, 2 memories?
How would you measure the memory? Halt the processes near the end and run top hoping to get a high water mark?

The BSS section is 199,952 bytes for 32-bit and 200,080 bytes for 64-bit.
The executables are usually smaller: A32 is 70KB, A64 is 63KB here, because 64-bit needs less instructions.
(A32 is 11362 instructions A64 is 10356 instructions).
A64 has double the number of registers for example, and so spends less time loading and reloading stuff, or saving things on the stack.

In practice, data memory size is a bit meaningless because the differences vary between each application.

In modern code people use fixed width sizes more. As you know, the memory models are ILP32 and LP64. In both cases "int"'s are 32-bits.
Pointers change in size, and so do "long"'s. I use stdint.h, so instead of "long" I use int64_t which is always a decent size (long long would do as well).
Modern languages like D and Rust all have fixed width integer sizes.

So in practice the only thing in data memory that changes are pointers (addresses). Now if your data is (say) arrays of floats, then you wont see any difference between 32 and 64-bits. If your data is all linked lists of structs, then you would likely see a noticeable difference.
So you have to look at your own code ....

Also in practice, 64-bit programs are commonly run on larger machines.
On my 8GB Pi4 I don't care much if a little bit more memory is used by the larger pointers.
Last edited by jahboater on Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Raspberry PI OS 64-bit Release Date

Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:26 am

Nitrax wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:39 pm
tibbe wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:21 am
I need a 64-bit OS as many k8s images only exist for 64-bit ARM.

Does the 64-bit branch on GitHub keep up with the 32-bit one for other things (i.e. will the 64-bit version have other fixes the 32-bit one has)?
If you use the k3s distribution of k8s at least, it will run perfectly fine with the standard rpi os pulling arm64 images and the only thing you need to change is to add

Code: Select all

arm_64bit=1
in /boot/config.txt

k3s even installs and runs as 64bit userland

Code: Select all

curl -sfL https://get.k3s.io | sh -

Adding "arm_64bit=1" just enables a 64bit Kernel on Raspberry Pi ARMHF Operating Systems, so it is 64bit Kernel and 32bit Userland.
Take what I advise as advice not the utopian holy grail, and it is gratis !!

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