tigernero
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Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 7:28 am

From the official Debian page it is clear that Debian 12 Bookworm will be officially released on June 10, 2023 also for arm64 architecture.
https://release.debian.org/

"The Debian 12 "bookworm" release is planned for 2023-06-10."

My question is: since raspi os arm64 is a full debian arm64 release, will we also have this version on June 10th?

If yes, will it be possible to do an update from debian 11 to debian 12 normally as a version upgrade or should the source.list file be forced to update?

Or is it better to install from scratch?

Thanks to whoever can answer me.

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rpdom
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 7:42 am

tigernero wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:28 am
My question is: since raspi os arm64 is a full debian arm64 release, will we also have this version on June 10th?
Possibly not. There are several Raspberry Pi specific packages and changes in RaspiOS in addition to the standard Debian system, so those would have to be included. It may take a little while to get those ready for a bookworm release.

Having said that, there have been some Raspberry Pi OS releases that have come out earlier than the Debian release, and some later. So anything is possible.
Unreadable squiggle

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B.Goode
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 7:46 am

tigernero wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:28 am
From the official Debian page it is clear that Debian 12 Bookworm will be officially released on June 10, 2023 also for arm64 architecture.
https://release.debian.org/

"The Debian 12 "bookworm" release is planned for 2023-06-10."

My question is: since raspi os arm64 is a full debian arm64 release, will we also have this version on June 10th?

If yes, will it be possible to do an update from debian 11 to debian 12 normally as a version upgrade or should the source.list file be forced to update?

Or is it better to install from scratch?

Thanks to whoever can answer me.


I don't speak for Raspberry Pi, and can't predict what will happen concerning Debian Bookworm.

But I can point out historical precedent.

Previously, releases of RasPiOS (formerly Raspbian) have lagged the mainstream Debian releases by a few weeks.

Raspberry Pi have never recommended or supported 'in-place' upgrades from one release to its successor.
Beware of the Leopard

redvli
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 8:46 am

tigernero wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:28 am
Or is it better to install from scratch?
It depends on various things, for example how much time you spent on making your own changes and how easy you think you can re-apply those.

I have done upgrade already for all Debian 11 to 12 (inplace), it was very easy, some went even unattended including auto-reboot. For the Pis, I use already bullseye-backported for many months. It is for all things where RPL hasn't done any hacking/patching.

I am used long-term to rolling release distro, they are quite ahead of RPiOS and it works actually more stable than RPiOS if I simply count the issues over the last 2 years. RPiOS is rather experimental in the area of the VC4 and firmware and that is all closed-source, so that is where the issues are. Also interesting is that the Debian organization and rolling releases keep transitions simply open (GNU/Linux is open source right) while RPL keeps 'Bookworm' secret. That is a weakness I think, I don't know the reason, but looks like the lowest amount of effort is to publish an 'image' URL at some point and basically between the lines tell you 'eat this', like one feeds and raises children. The majority simply accepts, they have to, as they never learned how to install Linux. It is basically the same or much worse for other SBCs, so as RPi was the first platform, this is the modern/new standard it seems.

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mahjongg
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 1:57 pm

RP Engineer comment needed on the absence of a Crystal Ball...

(but in-place upgrades have never been recommended or supported... )

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craigevil
Posts: 541
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 2:17 pm

The advice with a new RPIOS release has always been to do a clean install.
That said you can backup your users /home and a list of previously installed packages so you can easily reinstall them.

Save and reinstall all installed packages:

Code: Select all

 dpkg --get-selections > ~/Package.list
 sudo apt install dselect
 sudo dselect update
 sudo dpkg --set-selections < ~/Package.list
 sudo apt dselect-upgrade -y
Raspberry PI 400 Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm Kernel: 6.6.18-v8+ DE: XFCE
Debian - "If you can't apt install something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"

bjtheone
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Location: The Frozen North (AKA Canada)

Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 6:04 pm

redvli wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 8:46 am
tigernero wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:28 am
Or is it better to install from scratch?
It depends on various things, for example how much time you spent on making your own changes and how easy you think you can re-apply those.

I have done upgrade already for all Debian 11 to 12 (inplace), it was very easy, some went even unattended including auto-reboot. For the Pis, I use already bullseye-backported for many months. It is for all things where RPL hasn't done any hacking/patching.

I am used long-term to rolling release distro, they are quite ahead of RPiOS and it works actually more stable than RPiOS if I simply count the issues over the last 2 years. RPiOS is rather experimental in the area of the VC4 and firmware and that is all closed-source, so that is where the issues are. Also interesting is that the Debian organization and rolling releases keep transitions simply open (GNU/Linux is open source right) while RPL keeps 'Bookworm' secret. That is a weakness I think, I don't know the reason, but looks like the lowest amount of effort is to publish an 'image' URL at some point and basically between the lines tell you 'eat this', like one feeds and raises children. The majority simply accepts, they have to, as they never learned how to install Linux. It is basically the same or much worse for other SBCs, so as RPi was the first platform, this is the modern/new standard it seems.
I would not characterize this as an RPL issue. They have chosen to base their distro on Debian. Debian has decided to not do rolling releases and prioritizes stability over nimbleness. Once Debian releases Bookworm, RPL will release the next version of RPiOS based on this.

If you want a rolling release distro, just install it. You likely have a bunch of extra work to get the RPL extras or forgo them.

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dickon
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 6:13 pm

craigevil wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 2:17 pm
The advice with a new RPIOS release has always been to do a clean install.
That said you can backup your users /home and a list of previously installed packages so you can easily reinstall them.

Save and reinstall all installed packages:

Code: Select all

 dpkg --get-selections > ~/Package.list
 sudo apt install dselect
 sudo dselect update
 sudo dpkg --set-selections < ~/Package.list
 sudo apt dselect-upgrade -y
That's not entirely needed.

Code: Select all

dpkg --get-selections > pkgs.list
Copy file to new installation
dpkg --set-selections < pkgs.list
apt-get dselect-upgrade
works just as well. There's no need to install or use dselect itself; apt just does the work to get the package selection into the required state.
As it is apparently board policy to disallow any criticism of anything, as it appears to criticise something is to criticise all the users of that something, I will no longer be commenting in threads which are not directly relevant to my uses of the Pi.

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craigevil
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Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Wed May 31, 2023 6:31 pm

Nice didn't know that. I tend to refer to notes I have made. Still catching up with apt.
Raspberry PI 400 Raspberry Pi OS Bookworm Kernel: 6.6.18-v8+ DE: XFCE
Debian - "If you can't apt install something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"

floe
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 6:43 am

Re: Debian 12 Bookworm update from Bullseye Debian 11

Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:30 pm

For the record, I gave this script here a try today: https://gist.github.com/jauderho/6b7d42 ... c0ba521bd8

Seems to have worked fine so far, although I guess this is unsupported and may of course screw up your install.

Best, Florian

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